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Riot Pwyff

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02-28-2013
21 of 23 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaemRijou View Post
There are a few obvious changes that would put Udyr in the right direction. For example, Give Monkey Stance slow reduction per stack, or maybe even tenacity, though it would need a lot of testing to see if that would be overpowered. Another thing we could do, which I know a lot of people would be against, but I personally would like, is to give Udyr an actual ultimate instead of phoenix stance. I honestly have not seen anyone use phoenix stance besides clearing jungle, and I think that's pretty sad. It really doesn't get anywhere close to as strong or useful as Tiger stance. Also, another thing i've seen around is give Bear Stance a slight blink, though it sounds extremely overpowered. Whatever he does get, it will require a lot of testing I fear. Udyr seems a lot like Vladimir in the sense that any change in the slightest could make him overpowered.
You're definitely right about Udyr tweaks potentially rocketing him into a super tier of champion power. Some slow reduction would help, but maybe Udyr being kiteable is an intended weakness (I actually don't know, I'll ask later).

ALSO? THERE IS NO MONKEY STANCE. THERE'S MONKEY'S AGILITY. YOU LOSE GOOD SIR THIS DISCUSSION IS OVER BECAUSE YOU ARE FACTUALLY INCORRECT.

gg no re~


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XanatosRythe

Senior Member

02-28-2013

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=3079796 <- riot pls

(I'd really like to see a slow put onto shyvana's E just to give the skill some merit and allow shyvana to have a ganking ability...)


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BlackIronBeast

Senior Member

02-28-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot Pwyff View Post
I can't really commit the design team to reworks for very obvious reasons (they will kill me, most likely), bbbbut... would it make you feel better if I read it? Maybe if it's really good (I usually only play Morde to counter Kassadin and LB) I'll print it out and throw it at people.
That does make me feel better, thanks! There's another thread in the Champion Feedback forums that has a lot of good stuff/ideas written about him http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=3107848


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RockJockey

Senior Member

02-28-2013

@ Riot Pwyff Concerning Shyvana.

My focus on Black Cleaver is simply because it's one of the most efficient Armor Penetration items, the same logic can be applied to her new found use of Youmoo's Ghostblade and Last Whisperer. Essentially 3/4th's of her kit is tied around Magic Damage, which is not something she can afford to build penetration for and still perform ideally.

My Suggestion: (Pick any one or combination)
1) Increasing Shyvana's base attackspeed slightly. Why? The RADC's such as Ashe are also receiving buffed AS in order to stay relevant to the game. The faster Shyvana can Auto Attack, the more damage she can deal. This is the simplest way of buffing Shyvana that will echo throughout the rest of her kit.

2) Increasing W's (Burnout) duration without attacking to 4 seconds. This will mean Shyvana can move farther and faster in order to reach her target. For Shyvana to have a successful gank, she has to get into melee distance. Ganking pre-6 is tough. Otherwise you just run in flailing at your opponents like Warwick only to hear them laugh as they simply walk away. This W buff will also mean that her escape mechanics is easier.

3) W's Magic Damage Changed to Physical Damage. I've explained before. The current situation creates a Non-Ideal Item Situation. When I have to build Liandry's Torment on Shyvana in order to deal good damage, something is wrong.

4) Others have argued that her lack of sustainability is an issue. I don't see it as a big problem.

5) E. Flame Breath: A significant amount of Shyvana's damage is tied into this skill. This is a hard to hit skillshot. In human form, this skill should be able to pass through units like it does in Dragon form. This will mean Shyvana has a little more waveclear and more importanly, it can hit possible gank targets even if minions are in the way. The on-hit effect is the important part of the skill, not the immediate damage.

6) Or counter to everything I have said, make Shyvana a hybrid or AP Bruiser. Give her W an AP scaling, and give her E's on-hit effect a bettter AP scaling.

Shyvana's inability to get close enough is part of the problem. Shyvana has plenty of damage, I know from experience having played her tons of times on TT this season. Frozen Mallet and it's variation are a must-have on Shyvana in order to deal any of Shyvana's damage. On SR, Shyvana is too easily kited.

(I know we have been talking about Shyvana alot, but seriously, Riot, stop making AD melee champions with ultimates that have inappropriate AP scaling, aka Hecarim, Shyvana, Garen, Warwick, Rammus, Nasus, Gangplank, Renekton. it's as if you guys don't like it when Melee Champions have AD scaling ultimates when their entire kits revolve around building AD.)

Thank you for listening intently to my thoughts. My hope is that words reach the right ears.


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Jassu

Senior Member

02-28-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaemRijou View Post
There are a few obvious changes that would put Udyr in the right direction. For example, Give Monkey Stance slow reduction per stack, or maybe even tenacity, though it would need a lot of testing to see if that would be overpowered. Another thing we could do, which I know a lot of people would be against, but I personally would like, is to give Udyr an actual ultimate instead of phoenix stance. I honestly have not seen anyone use phoenix stance besides clearing jungle, and I think that's pretty sad. It really doesn't get anywhere close to as strong or useful as Tiger stance. Also, another thing i've seen around is give Bear Stance a slight blink, though it sounds extremely overpowered. Whatever he does get, it will require a lot of testing I fear. Udyr seems a lot like Vladimir in the sense that any change in the slightest could make him overpowered.
Phoenix Stance can effectively out-DPS Tiger Stance in team fights if you're able to consistently hit at least two targets with the proc. That said, it's inferior in the jungle currently because of how the jungle minions have been changed since S2 (the little ones being practically negligible while the larger ones are considerably more threatening).

For the record, you should generally avoid claiming certain things are obvious in any way. What may seem obvious to you could be completely counterintuitive to someone else, and that doesn't even begin to account for whether or not other people agree. For example, you suggest that Monkey's Agility should also have a stacking slow reduction or tenacity, which you claim would be an "obvious fix" to his "problems". I will say that it such a change would make him considerably stronger and could easily put him into the upper tier of junglers; however, I don't agree with that change at all.

Udyr is great at being a tanky menace and disrupting the backline of a teamfight with strong sticking ability and strong innate tankiness and damage (as well as his design naturally working with a bruiser build). That said, his easy-to-pick-up-on weakness is being kited before he can reach the target (this works into the design philosophy that champions have "obvious" strengths and weaknesses). Changing Monkey's Agility like you suggest would make him strong without having an obvious weakness, effectively giving him strength in the wrong way (like when Cho'Gath's rupture didn't have the AoE circle and was relatively hard to see—power without readability). I don't think that's the right way to buff Udyr.

As for your suggestion with Phoenix Stance, hell no. That's not obvious at all. To me, and to a lot of other players, Phoenix Stance is an integral part of Udyr's theme and feel—taking that away would be awful and I'd never want to play Udyr again. I love Phoenix Stance the most out of everything Udyr has, so I'd be pretty upset if it was removed. I'm sure others share a similar sentiment.


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daiden

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02-28-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot Pwyff View Post
You're definitely right about Udyr tweaks potentially rocketing him into a super tier of champion power. Some slow reduction would help, but maybe Udyr being kiteable is an intended weakness (I actually don't know, I'll ask later).

ALSO? THERE IS NO MONKEY STANCE. THERE'S MONKEY'S AGILITY. YOU LOSE GOOD SIR THIS DISCUSSION IS OVER BECAUSE YOU ARE FACTUALLY INCORRECT.

gg no re~
o no!


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Ding an Sich

Senior Member

02-28-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot Pwyff View Post
You're definitely right about Udyr tweaks potentially rocketing him into a super tier of champion power. Some slow reduction would help, but maybe Udyr being kiteable is an intended weakness (I actually don't know, I'll ask later).

ALSO? THERE IS NO MONKEY STANCE. THERE'S MONKEY'S AGILITY. YOU LOSE GOOD SIR THIS DISCUSSION IS OVER BECAUSE YOU ARE FACTUALLY INCORRECT.

gg no re~
I think if a cure was ever found for Udy's being kited, he would have to lose something major. Even when he was last seen as god tier (CLG vs WE way back at iem Ghegze, they tried banning HSGG out and let saint get udyr. Suffice to say it was a stop from clg's side), he could still be kited. But making him take longer, and not sustain as hard, slowly devalued him to a playable, but not a tournament pick position. With the addition of even more levels/sizes/types of cc, it made the problem worse.

I don't think removing the old nerfs would do anything but make him a really strong snowbally champ. So it either has to be dug around in which you give him an ability to basically negate almost all forms of CC except hard cc (cc that definitely stops a champion from doing anything, for an alright amount of time. TF card/ww ult are two classic examples) And this could be in the form of severely reduced CC effects on him, or an ability for him to hyper gap close. But this would just bring Udyr to lethal without merit status.

Then the only other inverse is giving him even more buffs to make up for the kitability, which makes him essentially a fighter who can handle any direct lane confrontations and give his dives a whole new meaning. But if you have ever seen an amazing aggressive udyr (SV does this to a good degree), then you find he already sorta accomplishes this with hit current kit. So furthering this might make him too OP for high level players.

I think you could take buffs from both positions, give him something meaningful and small like allowing him to ignore creep collision. Maybe even improving his attack range while in bear form only. You could also give him a huge buff like make all forms off 50-75% less effective while in bear form, but again you would need to take something away for that huge power spike.

Although I think it would be better asked from you guys, developer or live team, whether or not you would prefer udyr to always get his target if he earns his way to them (with no gap closer besides his MS boost and flash which is only usable close to 5 min, he generally has to run or have his team mate open up with some form of cc so he can get to the target), or if its more important for him to be able to reach his target, but not always engage with them?

In the first case if it is preferred, then once Udyr finds some way to make it to his target, then 90% of the time he should accomplish his goal of either CC'ing them, or being able to keep up and continually harass them. However getting to his target is another mind game, and what is most potent here is his stick potential.

If the second case is preferred, Udyr's would in theory no longer desire flash(since he could always reach his target in a clear and concise fashion), but would want ways to keep engaging with the target. So even if it is Anivia, even if it is TF with flash and his gold card up, udyr should be able to get in hitting range of them, but once he reaches them his overall power over them would have to be severely diminished. His sticking power would have to be nerfed to compensate his new catching power, otherwise it would just be a champion you could never escape or fight againstXD...


Regardless of how off I am in foresight, I think it is important to ask the Live team what they believe Udyr's role is against a champion base that grows more adept to simple ganking methods. Every newer jungler, or bruiser, or assassin is basically built with an unparalleled amount of speed (hec), complete control over a champion (Skarner), or a "god" mode ability that allows them to get by any other form of CC or movement (VI's ult).

Udyr still just has his stun. Items have to be bought for him to try and negate things (merc treads/FM/Frozen fist/shurelias). I still think he is really fun and even strong as a champion , but he is in a spot where he 30-50% of the time can be "adequate", while the other 70-50% he's as awkward as Sion/Trynd/and so on who need alot of elements to fall into place for them to be effective.


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VoidInsanity

Senior Member

02-28-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot Pwyff View Post
I can't really commit the design team to reworks for very obvious reasons (they will kill me, most likely), bbbbut... would it make you feel better if I read it? Maybe if it's really good (I usually only play Morde to counter Kassadin and LB) I'll print it out and throw it at people.
WAT YOU SMOKING!? Both of them champions counter morde hard the second they hit level 6 if they play smart, especially kassadin. In regards to the topic in question, I made a rather long post explaining why Morde is "outclassed" by everyone that you may wish to "Print".


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Illyriomysterio

Senior Member

02-28-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by SwiftSwrd View Post
Also possibly for Solcrushed, Pwyff, or Scarizard:

So with the Ez nerfs there was something mentioned about looking at AP Ez afterwards, could you tell me if that's gone anywhere yet? And if so the direction that it's heading?
This so much.


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DaemRijou

Senior Member

02-28-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot Pwyff View Post
You're definitely right about Udyr tweaks potentially rocketing him into a super tier of champion power. Some slow reduction would help, but maybe Udyr being kiteable is an intended weakness (I actually don't know, I'll ask later).

ALSO? THERE IS NO MONKEY STANCE. THERE'S MONKEY'S AGILITY. YOU LOSE GOOD SIR THIS DISCUSSION IS OVER BECAUSE YOU ARE FACTUALLY INCORRECT.

gg no re~
Y'know, I just played a game of Udyr vs Riven and I noticed something..

Udyr Q: Udyr's main attacking skill, increases attack speed and does large DoT
Riven Q: Riven's main attacking skill, AoE with 3 dashes and a knockup with high damage

Udyr W: Shield and small healing effect on auto attack
Riven E: Stronger shield with a dash

Udyr E: Stun and movement speed buff
Riven W: AoE stun with good damage

Udyr R: AP AoE with average damage
Riven R: Huge damage steroid with ranged finisher

..This makes me never want to play Udyr again..Ever.