Can I get some actual factual data on how this new system works, and how it is fair?

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Endaar

Member

02-25-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hubbards View Post
To your first question: Riot replaced an open elo system with a division system so people felt like they were progressing and to avoid direct elo comparisons that always arose.
To your second question: Riot will probably never release the exact calculations or numbers.
To your last comment: Riot has no incentive to make a broken, unfair system. It will have bugs and glitches but eventually you will settle at the place you belong.

Thank you for the direct reply to my questions.

I definitely feel at this point that there is no progression, whereas I was steadily rising in the elo system. However, I realize most others are able to progress quite easily and quickly so they seem to get upset when someone questions whether everything is working properly. I've seen screenshots of people losing LP for winning games, so yes, there are obviously some things not working at the moment, I was just phishing for more information regarding my personal experiences with the new system.

Coming from a competitive gaming background I find it hard to believe that they really haven't/aren't going to release information on how their 'ranked/competitive' system works. It seems like there would be no reason why they should keep it hidden, since it only keeps people from knowing where exactly they stand. I assumed that someone would have figured out how it works already, but maybe those who know don't browse these boards, or if it's only riot employees who know, perhaps they are under some nondisclosure thing (who would know for what reason, but still) that is keeping them from discussing it publicly.

Thank you and thanks to everyone else who replied and tried to help. I guess it will take more time for the information I'm looking for to go public.

A mod could close this now or simply let it die.


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Endaar

Member

02-25-2013

[QUOTE=cauliflower;35016757]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Endaar View Post
I have had more than one 7 game win streak, usually takes me up about 50 LP total.


This whole system was setup to make us feel like our advancements are more meaningful. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if 7 wins in a row takes you up 50 LP, isn't this exactly the opposite effect riot wanted?
Yes, over 100 games now and been in silver 1 the whole time... definitely meaningful advancements, haha. Thanks for the reply.


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LogicalTautology

Senior Member

02-25-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Endaar View Post
Also, this statement alone makes no logical sense. If my MMR is low for my division, wouldn't I get MORE LP for wins, than for losses, since I would be matching with people higher than me? It would make sense if my MMR was too high, and therefore since I'm playing lower rated people, I get lower gains, but then it would just boil down to 'why am I only getting matched with lower players.' If that were the case, where is the switch I can flip so I get matched with higher people and only have to win 3 games in a row to get to 100LP? (this is more of a joke than anything, we are just speculating here, afterall)
No one here is speculating at all, actually. I feel bad for the fact that maybe you really just are misunderstanding people, so I'll give it a go.

The Match-Making Rating (MMR) has always existed for all queues. It has always been hidden in Normals, and it was output as your Elo score in Ranked for S2. This rating system has not changed in the slightest for Season 3, the only difference is that it is now hidden in Ranked (as it was in Normals before). In S2, every player had a hidden Normal MMR and a public Ranked MMR. In S3, every player has a hidden Normal MMR and a hidden Ranked MMR. If you wish to get an approximation of your Ranked MMR, consult Lolking (your Lolking score at the top of this page is Lolking's approximation of your Ranked MMR).

The formulas surrounding exactly how your MMR is changed with every game has never been public, but (as I mentioned) it works exactly the same way as the Elo system did last season. It is also known that the system is based on the Elo system that was made famous from chess, but with some changes.

The reason that you might be getting much higher LP deductions for losses than your gains for wins is that your MMR is lower than it should be for your division. Because of the floor for not dropping beneath your current League level (once you reach Gold, you can't drop down to Silver), the system has limits in place to avoid someone who is Silver III going on a lucky winstreak of 20 games and ending up in Gold without deserving it. Thus, if your League Division is higher than your MMR rating would be, the system puts checks in place to prevent huge gains. Note that it doesn't stop those gains, though; if you are significantly better than your MMR, you will see huge win% in your games and will still gain LP rather than losing it, even with decreased rewards.


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noxToken

Senior Member

02-25-2013

I tried to read through most of this thread, but I'll admit that I skimmed a few parts of it. If I have repeated info that was already post, please forgive me.

You said that you have a win rate of about 50-55%. In terms of Elo (I guess MMR in this case), that's right where you should be. The point of the system is to place you in a bracket where you are winning and losing at a 1:1 ratio. That's how most, if not all, companies try to formulate their MMR systems. Else there would be some wonky matches if their systems tried to sit players at a 1.5:1 (60/40%) win/loss ratio. I need to ask one question, and this will make or break my point: are the people that you're talking to at about this whole LP system at about a 1:1 ratio of wins:losses? If not, then theoretically, they should be climbing faster (or slower) than you.

Now as far as climbing the ladder, I will say that it is kind of weird that a shmuck can go on a lucky 10 game streak during placement, get thrown into gold for the entire season, yet wind up with a truly settled MMR of high bronze/low silver players. They're considered among the better than average tier with the (near) inability to drop tiers, even though their play indicates bronze/silver tier. Crazy, right?

And another thing: no one is going to be able to give you hard numbers. You're asking for the impossible. Until you get a red post from someone that specifically worked on the MMR and LP system, everything you get from any member or any other Riot employee will be pure speculation. As said before, these systems are kept secret, so you're not going to get that magical red post you're looking for. Now, some posts will be more informed that others; some posts will be completely wrong. The truth is, the absolute best you can get in the forums without a red post is someone being 100% accurate in their description of Riot's system without them being 100% sure if their guess is correct.


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Endaar

Member

02-25-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by LogicalTautology View Post
No one here is speculating at all, actually. I feel bad for the fact that maybe you really just are misunderstanding people, so I'll give it a go.

The Match-Making Rating (MMR) has always existed for all queues. It has always been hidden in Normals, and it was output as your Elo score in Ranked for S2. This rating system has not changed in the slightest for Season 3, the only difference is that it is now hidden in Ranked (as it was in Normals before). In S2, every player had a hidden Normal MMR and a public Ranked MMR. In S3, every player has a hidden Normal MMR and a hidden Ranked MMR. If you wish to get an approximation of your Ranked MMR, consult Lolking (your Lolking score at the top of this page is Lolking's approximation of your Ranked MMR).

The formulas surrounding exactly how your MMR is changed with every game has never been public, but (as I mentioned) it works exactly the same way as the Elo system did last season. It is also known that the system is based on the Elo system that was made famous from chess, but with some changes.

The reason that you might be getting much higher LP deductions for losses than your gains for wins is that your MMR is lower than it should be for your division. Because of the floor for not dropping beneath your current League level (once you reach Gold, you can't drop down to Silver), the system has limits in place to avoid someone who is Silver III going on a lucky winstreak of 20 games and ending up in Gold without deserving it. Thus, if your League Division is higher than your MMR rating would be, the system puts checks in place to prevent huge gains. Note that it doesn't stop those gains, though; if you are significantly better than your MMR, you will see huge win% in your games and will still gain LP rather than losing it, even with decreased rewards.
It has already been discussed too many times that LoLking Score =/= anything that resembles MMR. Lolking score simply directly reflects your current LP status in your current division, in number form.

You say I am getting lower gains and higher losses in LP because my MMR is lower than my division, but that does not make any sense since I have been in Silver 1 the entire time since the new system. So, I was placed in Silver 1 because of my MMR (which you claim is exactly the same as Elo), which was 1500. Why would I be placed into a division that this system doesn't think I should be in, and I have to fight an uphill battle (realistically, probably a 65-75% win rate) to go higher?

Also, how can you explain how people I know who have under a 50% win rate have risen 6 division already? Where is their clamping? Where are their decreased gains? How does this factor into your theory?

Thank you for the reply! I hope you can help me further to understand this.


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Endaar

Member

02-25-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amarond View Post
I tried to read through most of this thread, but I'll admit that I skimmed a few parts of it. If I have repeated info that was already post, please forgive me.

You said that you have a win rate of about 50-55%. In terms of Elo (I guess MMR in this case), that's right where you should be. The point of the system is to place you in a bracket where you are winning and losing at a 1:1 ratio. That's how most, if not all, companies try to formulate their MMR systems. Else there would be some wonky matches if their systems tried to sit players at a 1.5:1 (60/40%) win/loss ratio. I need to ask one question, and this will make or break my point: are the people that you're talking to at about this whole LP system at about a 1:1 ratio of wins:losses? If not, then theoretically, they should be climbing faster (or slower) than you.

Now as far as climbing the ladder, I will say that it is kind of weird that a shmuck can go on a lucky 10 game streak during placement, get thrown into gold for the entire season, yet wind up with a truly settled MMR of high bronze/low silver players. They're considered among the better than average tier with the (near) inability to drop tiers, even though their play indicates bronze/silver tier. Crazy, right?

And another thing: no one is going to be able to give you hard numbers. You're asking for the impossible. Until you get a red post from someone that specifically worked on the MMR and LP system, everything you get from any member or any other Riot employee will be pure speculation. As said before, these systems are kept secret, so you're not going to get that magical red post you're looking for. Now, some posts will be more informed that others; some posts will be completely wrong. The truth is, the absolute best you can get in the forums without a red post is someone being 100% accurate in their description of Riot's system without them being 100% sure if their guess is correct.
The people (my friends) who I have been talking to and monitoring their stats, some have UNDER a 50% win rate and have climbed up 5 or 6 divisions already, gaining 30 LP for wins and only losing 8 for losses. They will literally win 3 games in a row and go straight to promotion matches from 0 LP, in some instances. I agree that it is logical a ~50% win rate should mean you are in the right division, and I honestly don't even know if I should be higher or lower - that isn't why I made the thread. I am wondering how people with less of a win percentage than myself have been able to climb so easily and quickly, while I have been clamped from the start, and remained in the same league the entire time with a positive win ratio.

Thank you for your reply!


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LogicalTautology

Senior Member

02-25-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Endaar View Post
my MMR (which you claim is exactly the same as Elo)
If you're going to continue to belittle everyone who posts, you're not going to get much help. It's not a claim, it's a fact.


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Endaar

Member

02-25-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by LogicalTautology View Post
If you're going to continue to belittle everyone who posts, you're not going to get much help. It's not a claim, it's a fact.
What? I don't see how I was belittling you with what you quoted. I didn't know which term to use, MMR or Elo, since you are the first person I've seen use them interchangeably, I referenced you saying they were the same.

Do you have a source that says the new MMR is in fact, simply just ELO?

I did not mean to upset you!


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Disgruntler

Senior Member

02-25-2013

If you are winning about 50% of your matches, you do not have a reasonable expectation to climb in league standing.


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Leader Starlin

Senior Member

02-25-2013

I completely am in agreeance with the original post. I've been in Silver V since I've been ranked, and the only way for me to move up is to win 3/4 games and I don't know how I could do that if Riot said in confidence that you should end up with a 50/50 ratio. I know players must win more than lose to move up, so it really doesn't make sense. Also I've heard my buddy gets 30 ish LP per game in bronze and I only get 9 to 12 for winning and lose about 18 to 23 for losing. So it is very hard to really know how they calculate this when everything is so different. That's about all I have to say for now, if any other info arises let me know.