Zileas' List of Game Design Anti-Patterns

First Riot Post
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Knote

Senior Member

10-15-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by TechpriestJadoko View Post
One thing that some people don't understand, as annoying as it can sometimes be, is that losing is a learning experience.

"WHAT IS THIS MUNDO HE IS MASS HEALING HP AND NOT DYING I DON'T EVEN"

"Oh. That's his ult, it heals a lot of HP quickly. Hmm, maybe I should use my Ignite spell when he uses that so then he gets too aggressive and not healing nearly as much."

It's not like in DotA where you die and you don't really know why. Checking what killed you can help you prepare for it in the future, and can build counters around it.

You won't know what something does all the time, but it's easier to learn once you die to it.

Exactly, I have no problem making the learning experience for newbies easier, but not when its sacrificing higher levels of play.

Also I'm not hating on Zileas. I agree with most of his points.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Contriving StyLe

The Council

10-15-2010

Does wanting to kill a player, and setting up a nice gank.. only to have that player constantly flash/ ghost away fit in one of these categories?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Knote

Senior Member

10-15-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by L0CUST View Post
Does wanting to kill a player, and setting up a nice gank.. only to have that player constantly flash/ ghost away fit in one of these categories?

I figured setting up a nice gank meant preparing for said ghost/flash.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Vhox

Member

10-15-2010

Nice read Zil!


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Katholas

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Junior Member

10-15-2010

First off, thanks for a great post. Anything that lets us see a little deeper into the design philosophy you guys use is always appreciated.

However I also disagree that burden of knowledge is a big enough problem to warrant taking mechanics off the table. Like somebody said earlier, it really sucks when you get killed by something and don't know why it killed you or how to avoid it. However it really only sucks that first time(or the first game if nobody on your team will explain what happened) but after that you either ask your team, look at the death recap, or wait till after the game and look it up online. After that you will never be frustrated by the lack of knowledge again.

The trade off is that you can use really cool abilities like rupture or borrowed time, lord of avernus' ult where if you dealt him damage while it was up it healed him instead. Call me crazy but i actually liked the tension of playing against BS and figuring out if i can run just far enough to get to safety or if i should be standing still and trying to minimize rupture damage instead.

Personally I think the trade off of a single frustrating death to an ability once in a players lifetime is well worth being able to use some interesting mechanics.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

mistermoo

Senior Member

10-15-2010

Regarding burden of knowledge, I was premading with some friends with one person being very new to the game. In the middle of the game he saw a big circle appear on the ground so naturally he stood in the middle of it....

And took 1000 damage to the dome from a Pantheon skyfalling in. ;D

He didn't make that mistake again!


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Psi21

Senior Member

10-15-2010

Zilea and Greeves,

Why aren't you addressing the no fun strategy behind Massive AoE and Crowd Control in too many champs?

No, I don't mean the Hexdrinker because that is for physical carries and not a resolve or a fix.

Where does your chart work when it comes to:
Galieo = AoE Taunt (nearly untouchable while taunted)

Morgana = Dark shield + AoE snare and high damage (nearly impossible to crowd control her to prevent her.)

Amumu = Instant AoE damage and Stun. (no means to stop it often longer and wider than that of malpheite)

Kennen = Ult AoE damage and possibly AoE stun (no form of CC will stop his ult)

Sona = Instant cone like AoE damage and Stun (no means to stop it *see amumu)

Vlad = Ult AoE damage + AoE snare puddle (you can't target Vlad and his snare puddle is slowly damaging you. He pops from his puddle immediately using Tides of Blood and you then take the damage of his ult) Sure you could end that with a sash or debuff but WAY TOO MUCH AoE.

I could go on but I am at work.

I am not sure if this is more of a balancing issue you need to bring up with your devs.

But I would put the AoE / Crowd Control ults or combos on the top of the Anti Fun list.

Please note this is not a dig at Roit developers this is more of a concern out of frustration. In fact could see the recent player base picking more and more tank damaging champs as their only means of countering this.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Darkbyte

Senior Member

10-15-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
Fun Fails to Exceed Anti-Fun
This is where the 'anti-fun' created on your opponents by your use of a mechanic is greater than your fun in using the mechanic. Dark Binding is VERY favorable on this measurement, because opponents get clutch dodges just like you get clutch hits. On the other hand, a strong mana burn is NOT desirable -- if you drain someone to 0 you feel kinda good, and they feel TERRIBLE -- so the anti-fun is exceeded by the fun. This is important because the goal of the game is for players to have fun, so designers should seek abilities that result in a net increase of fun in the game. Basic design theory, yes?
See:
http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board...d.php?t=293475


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Dianetics

Senior Member

10-15-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by L0CUST View Post
Does wanting to kill a player, and setting up a nice gank.. only to have that player constantly flash/ ghost away fit in one of these categories?
Yes, When you manage to chase one of those blinky *******s down and kill them it feels great.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Worstcase

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

10-15-2010

Intriguing. It's nice to know that somewhere in the world there are people who understand these mechanics, and unlike myself can explain without going 'uh..' and whatnot. Will have to use this post often in my game arguments.