Zileas' List of Game Design Anti-Patterns

First Riot Post
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Sindae

Senior Member

10-15-2010

I think this is a very interesting read, but don't you think some of this is limiting your diversity and originality of champion skills?

I know you've said before that having fun champs is more important than having original champs, and that's great, but after 60 champs and more on the way aren't you afraid of rehashing the same stuff over and over without compromising some of these concepts?

In particular something like "burden of knowledge," "conflicted purpose" and "unclear optimization" can lead to a lot more diversity. Sure, it might cause some disappointing games, but everyone adapts eventually and there's already a fairly sizable learning curve to the game that I don't think having somewhat more complex abilities will exacerbate much.


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ThanksALatte

Senior Member

10-15-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
Rupture has a ton of problems

First, burden of knowledge

Secondly, its good when they are fleeing -- in which case in dota you have a good shot at a kill anyway if it was, oh i dont know, deals 300 damage direct nuke ;p So, its purpose is pretty weak

Thirdly, it's just not that satisfying vs its power -- power without gameplay. Human psycology undervalues weak dots.
Ok, so many players find laning against mf to be "unfun" or a better real word for it. Point is, double up really bothers a ton of players, so why is this in the game?


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Intangible

Senior Member

10-15-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
because not everyone is like you

I'm with you personally though.
+Love

Morgana (SO SATISFYING.)
Ezrael (All of em, I miss AP Ez. He was good when I was lvl 10-20. Not so much 30+ ranked.)
Kog
Malzahar (Seems unclear Optimziation here. Really unsure how well I do when it hits. I don't feel any sweet loving when it lands. Still fun to use.)
Galio! Double nukes ftw.
Ashe. Volley is meh but Ultimate is aweessomeee.

-Hate
Karthus (So annoying to spam.)
Olaf (Reduced range is annoying, I always seem to click too close to the person. Maybe it should fly 20 range AFTER the cursor click, if less than max range.)



Ok I'm gunna stop there.


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IS1d69e2e5726f5f

Member

10-15-2010

i like Lux's laser ult

Enemy: What's this targeting reticle? Oh ****!
Lux: Blaaaarrg!


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adwark

Senior Member

10-15-2010

I found burden of knowledge most interesting(I suppose one would expect you to get this one right first) and think Riot has done very poor job on that front.If you pay so much care not to burden people you should update data often and make sure it is accurate.This is one thing that amazes me as it is easy to do and you do it so poorly.Heroes knowledge base usually comes out week or so after hero,changes in heroes abilities are often not updated.Abilities don't have good descriptions(eg physical or magic damage - so many people ask about this again and again and still nothing is done about it).This is the most basic stuff that makes game much easier for new players and is easy to do(just time spent needed).Bad jobie you have done here indeed.


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Anikdote

Senior Member

10-15-2010

Bah, so I guess this means no cranium bashers and stun locking agi champs. =)


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Bregan

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Senior Member

10-15-2010

burden of knowledge is a very fickle thing. to a certain degree you have to know about things ahead of time in order to do well against them. oh she's covered in a bubble? well maybe i can break it.... wtf she absorbed all of it. and why is ashe hurting her with attacks but my spells arent? its a scenario where you have to experience something.

another example would be simply playing against anivia. "ok her ball of ice comes out about this far, well if i can get to melee range that shouldnt be a problem" .... "oh wtf she can blow it up early??? so much for that plan" *tries to run back* "wtf where did this wall come from??? i didnt know she could do that" it takes experience.

personally i like the idea of a debuff (good idea to have a visual graphic to show this, not just a buff icon) where your next spell cast (within x amount of seconds / while the buff is on you) will silence you for a few seconds (your chosen spell still went off though) and burn a large chunk of mana (possibly take damage from the burned mana too). this takes experience to recognize. "huh... every time he puts that little cloud on me and i cast a spell, i get silenced and hurt/lose mana... i should probably wait to cast the next time i see it." simple.

now i dont know how "rupture" from dota was illustrated, like if it was visible beyond a buff icon or not, or if you just had to tell thats what you were taking damage from, but it seems to follow a similar pattern. of course, movement as a variable mechanic in a game where movement and positioning are so important, might be a little less obvious, i grant you that. but if there is a way to make it obvious, that you can figure it out by simple observation once or twice, whats wrong? note, this is not a direct "rally" for "rupture", just talking how "burden of knowledge" is a pretty fine line.


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Sheetsy

Member

10-15-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychique View Post
Obvious form of Rupture:
Create a binding tether to the ground that deals damage if you start moving away from it? :O
And make it castable on Allies to! It'll heal them the closer they are to it!


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Lightstriker

Adjudicator

10-15-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by adwark View Post
I found burden of knowledge most interesting(I suppose one would expect you to get this one right first) and think Riot has done very poor job on that front.If you pay so much care not to burden people you should update data often and make sure it is accurate.This is one thing that amazes me as it is easy to do and you do it so poorly.Heroes knowledge base usually comes out week or so after hero,changes in heroes abilities are often not updated.Abilities don't have good descriptions(eg physical or magic damage - so many people ask about this again and again and still nothing is done about it).This is the most basic stuff that makes game much easier for new players and is easy to do(just time spent needed).Bad jobie you have done here indeed.
I don't think that you know what burden of knowledge is. :/ None of what you listed is an example of the point he's making.


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Riot Exgeniar

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QA Analyst

10-15-2010

I love learning and understanding design choices that you guys make =)