Anyone else a bit dissapointed with Quinn's design?

First Riot Post
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Deadmond

Senior Member

02-13-2013

I'm okay with a fully armored woman, I fail to understand the reasoning behind completely hiding her gender and I honestly think her gear doesn't fit her lore, but I'm completely fine with that, it's your game and I'll enjoy her if her kit is fun, that's the really important part for me. Just, pretty please, tell me her skin isn't another bird suit. Please.


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Mynt

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Senior Member

02-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rauron View Post
Why did this get a downvote? It's entirely true. An obvious (if modest and tasteful) rack, a slim waist, some solid hips, soft facial features... How is that -not- feminine? I look at her and think gal first, potentially androgynous male second.
Actually... only the rack part of that description is a feminine feature. Any male can have a slimmer waist, larger hips, and softer facial features than a female.

It's only in video games and cartoons that men are drawn to have arms larger than their legs. In reality, such a person would have to resort to knuckle-walking to stay upright.

That's the controversy about designing women without their titts hanging out. The American populace has been conditioned to believe that attractive, clean-shaven, normal looking humans are what females look like, and everything else has a ***** by comparison.


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chumbler

Senior Member

02-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avalon Bright View Post
That's not exactly a good thing.
Yeah uhhh...you're completely wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mudflap View Post
No, they aren't. There needs to be variety, we've had 3 of these masculine "strong independent woman totally covered head-to-toe in armor" character types in a row, why not mix it up again? For every 'seductive' character we had a 'non-seductive' one already, Lux, Anivia, Annie, Riven, and Leona I can name right off the top of my head, not including the new ones (Diana, Vi, and now Quinn)

If its about variety and not PC then let's have both again please.
What.Seriously, what.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avalon Bright View Post
See, this. This is the kind of stuff I'm talking about. You're so offended by the idea of femininity and just the very concept of being female you're completely incapable of not separating the concepts in your head. It's like there's no part of you whatsoever that can reconcile with the idea of a feminine woman still managing to be strong, badass, etc.

I can't wrap my head around this because every non-female related post you make comes off as extremely thoughtful, intelligent, and so on, and yet you somehow have this idea that comes out in every single champion you make
Stop trolling.


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davin

Senior User Researcher

02-13-2013
9 of 20 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avalon Bright View Post
See, this. This is the kind of stuff I'm talking about. You're so offended by the idea of femininity and just the very concept of being female you're completely incapable of not separating the concepts in your head. It's like there's no part of you whatsoever that can reconcile with the idea of a feminine woman still managing to be strong, badass, etc.
That is like exactly what Leona is to me. She is a pretty lady who kicks asses and takes names (and calls down mighty sun flares).


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Chilly5

Senior Member

02-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
Some quick context:

Quinn used to be a guy, then I turned her into a woman. That woman is a ranger, she's prepared for a fight, she's wearing thicker armor but not plate aside from key places where she would have to interact with an enemy's face.

Quinn was not designed to be in a skin-tight outfit. That was tried, and look, again, like a woman with a cape, in a skin tight outfit, which had been worked to death by Zyra, Syndra, Elise, and Diana. She does not care about looking feminine, she cares about utility. Baggy fatigues which have hardened pockets, knee pads to dig into the ground to take a shot, no exposed flesh to take a graze.

A functional Demacian helmet which adds sleekness is a design choice. It's Valkyrie, it's a motif, and it's a visual landmark. She has a gauntlet reminiscent of a falconer's glove which is armored because Valor has armor on his talons, to again, interact with an enemy's face. He can do damage to even thick leather.

Her hood is collapsed, she has essentially a themed parka with a bird motif, Functional but themed.

She has what equates to kevlar, thickened material able to resist a blade. She has Demacian signifiers all over her, and bird motifs worked in. She is functional but fantasy.

Regarding femininity, I was called out long ago when Sejuani released for making the reasoning that Sejuani might wear less clothing so that "you can tell she's female." That is an invalid argument and a sad excuse to design a particular way. A ranger, an elite, doesn't care whether you can tell they are a female or a male. They are interested in getting the job done, and having the gear to do so. We gave Quinn that gear and did not embrace the traditional route of the tight-clothed standard fantasy ranger. She's a new ranger for a new time. She hits the Demacian notes but plays off of them. That is the rational behind similar armor themes to Garen and Jarvan. That's how we establish she's in the military proper, but not standard in uniform.

For reference, take a look ad Deunan Knute from Appleseed. She has no boob or breastplates. She is completely covered with a half-helm. She has short hair. She is a bit more masculine, that's the goal. She is not a waif, but she is agile. She has small breasts, a tighter frame, but is fairly androgynous. That's what we wanted to portray, and I feel we hit that.

Honestly, I feel I owe no excuses. You know my history, you know my goals. I design the women in armor. I do not design the over-sexualized, the seductress, or the siren. Different artists gravitate towards different styles and themes. When this champion came along, I opted to work on it because I felt I could bring a different take. Initially, she did start out as a traditional fantasy ranger, and actually was melee at the time. However, that was not the route we wanted to take. That was standard, it was conventional, and it was boring. I drove away from it and made something rugged in the new direction we're trying to take our style. Fantasy, but not traditional fantasy.

This is my take. If you don't like it that's perfectly fine. I, like all artists, design with particular design and form language as my signature. You might have noticed Zyra, Syndra and Elise were designed by the same artist. Sexy bodies, integrated clothing/biology, dark females. Same with artist for Nautilus, Ziggs and Lulu. Friendly shapes, opposing colors, offbeat characters. Just like game designers have similar flavor to their champions across the board artists have similar common expressions.

If you want a traditional archer, with a traditional fantasy get-up, with a traditional build, and a traditional design where female form expression trumps practically fighting the fight, I am not your guy, and I'm glad to admit that. That's my strength, that why I work on what I work on.

I do not abide by the established or the expected, neither does Riot on the whole. It is not our job to abide, it's our job to challenge the convention and question traditional execution.

Thanks for the feedback. Thanks for understanding where we're coming from. This isn't just me. This is part of something larger. Pendulums will swing, you'll get your stripped down heroes. Quinn is not one of them and we're proud of that.
"If you don't like it that's perfectly fine."

This line...is very unprofessional. It's saying, "back off, I have my own style."

The problem with Quinn's design however, is that it is not iconic. This has nothing to do with liking your style or not, its just lackluster designing.

Each champion in League of Legends should convey a full character trope. Darius for instance, great character design (gameplay design is debated), he's clearly your bad-ass no-nonsense-dunkmaster type of guy. He fully conveys this, and there is VERY little overlap between his trope and that of another champion. Lulu is your cute/small mischievous witch-type-with-fairy. When you think of an archetype, you should have no confusion directly linking a character to it.

I believe is was said somewhere before that Syndra or Zyra are examples of characters that could have been done better. This is because...despite the fact that they are "a certain trope," they do not fully work themselves into that trope, and there is a lot of overlap and not a lot of "definition" of their character vs that of similar characters.
The "badass dark/voluptuous/mature/powerful female" trope has already been explored by the likes of Morgana, Zyra, Elise, Syndra, Katarina, Cassiopeia, Diana, Shyvanna, and Leblanc. Sure each of these characters has their "thing" (moon-girl, dragon-girl, plant-girl, spider girl, etc), but when it comes to defining character traits, they are literally all the same character. None of them are memorable/likeable, and I would argue that as a result there is less fandom from the community over their CHARACTERS (not necessarily the champion, but the CHARACTER of the champion).

When I see Quinn, I dont necessarily relate her to Vayne, even though both have a cross-bow type thing.
This is because Vayne is very clearly defined to be this "vampire-hunter/Van Helsing" type. I see her as this dark vigilante kind of character, and she clearly conveys the trope. Her crossbow does not carry her trope, her overall character does.
I dont even relate her to Swain, because Swain too, is very defined. He's your crooked strategist, a win-by-any means cripple. The bird is there, and it adds to his character, but it doesnt carry his trope, his character does.
The character that I most associate with Quinn...is Leona.
This is because all that I've read of your characterization of Quinn...is Leona. Quinn IS Iron Solari Leona with a crossbow and a bird.
All this talk about wearing armor that "gets the job done," not interested in showing off femininity, all of this stuff is Leona.
Sure you can point out Leona's armor is more "form fitting," Leona has long hair, she has high-heels even, but none of those details detract away from Leona's overall character trope: serious-armored woman. Leona's full body armor is character-defining.
To make a character that is -I mean I can just literally replace all references to Quinn with "Leona" and it would make about as much sense- it's just poor design choices in my opinion.

Why do I care? As a fan of the game I understand that the League champion pool cannot be infinite. Eventually production of champions will end. That's why it's very valuable to me as a fan to enjoy champions that are each iconic and unique, each exploring a specific trope. And it's not like we're out of tropes or anything! I can't expect myself to find every character top of the line trope-defined such that I am appeased, but there should definitely be more attention to this matter.
The way I see it so far, Quinn looks like a cookie-cutter copy of Leona's character, with some new duds. Similar to how Syndra is a cookie-cutter copy of any of those other "voluptuous"-power-females that I referenced earlier.

So don't say "if you don't like it that's perfectly fine."
It should very much concern you if there is talk from the community of not liking it. At the end of the day I think Quinn will turn out great, and will be a fun character, I have few doubts to this. But, by creating her, it's stepping on the character definition of Leona, and diluting what made Leona special. With future champions I feel like there should be an effort to avoid this than saying "that's perfectly fine."

Edit- This is in direct response to IronStylus' comment.
However, even in considering the other preview material, where she's more in the direction of a "forest-batman" character, I feel that she lacks character-defining.
I understand that I have not seen the final product. I'm just commenting off of what was posted.


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Ravechaosknight

Senior Member

02-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
I'll tell you what a League of Legends falcon ranger looks like.

It looks like Quinn.
. . .

Ok, now she needs a Power Ranger skin, replete with Falcon Helmet, Falcon Morpher, and Falcon Zord Val, make it happen Parrot! All my monies! ;-; Plus, the new Power Rangers could use some help. xD Saaaaaaban hire the Parrot!

Edit: Sorry had a flashback to my childhood there, lol


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Madra

Senior Member

02-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotMontag View Post
I want to reiterate this, because it's super important. This is how we roll. We experiment, we try things out. We do things that seems crazy to see how they'll turn out. It's chaotic, it's creative, and it's bound to upset somebody. But it's who we are.

I hope you're along for the ride, but be prepared to feel a bump every now and then.
I hope you guys are being hyperbolic. Otherwise, LOL! Designing champions for a free online game is some heavy stuff. 0.o


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RisottoNero

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Senior Member

02-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
I'll tell you what a League of Legends falcon ranger looks like.

It looks like Quinn.
That's cool and all. What else? Mordekaiser is actually a stealth assasin and Annie is a supposed to be a heavy knight.


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highcomm

Senior Member

02-13-2013

"She has small breasts"

downvote this and your a gay


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Shadeykris

Senior Member

02-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chilly5 View Post
"If you don't like it that's perfectly fine."

This line...is very unprofessional. It's saying, "back off, I have my own style."

The problem with Quinn's design however, is that it is not iconic. This has nothing to do with liking your style or not, its just lackluster designing.

Each champion in League of Legends should convey a full character trope. Darius for instance, great character design (gameplay design is debated), he's clearly your bad-ass no-nonsense-dunkmaster type of guy. He fully conveys this, and there is VERY little overlap between his trope and that of another champion. Lulu is your cute/small mischievous witch-type-with-fairy. When you think of an archetype, you should have no confusion directly linking a character to it.

I believe is was said somewhere before that Syndra or Zyra are examples of characters that could have been done better. This is because...despite the fact that they are "a certain trope," they do not fully work themselves into that trope, and there is a lot of overlap and not a lot of "definition" of their character vs that of similar characters.
The "badass dark/voluptuous/mature/powerful female" trope has already been explored by the likes of Morgana, Zyra, Elise, Syndra, Katarina, Cassiopeia, Diana, Shyvanna, and Leblanc. Sure each of these characters has their "thing" (moon-girl, dragon-girl, plant-girl, spider girl, etc), but when it comes to defining character traits, they are literally all the same character. None of them are memorable/likeable, and I would argue that as a result there is less fandom from the community over their CHARACTERS (not necessarily the champion, but the CHARACTER of the champion).

When I see Quinn, I dont necessarily relate her to Vayne, even though both have a cross-bow type thing.
This is because Vayne is very clearly defined to be this "vampire-hunter/Van Helsing" type. I see her as this dark vigilante kind of character, and she clearly conveys the trope. Her crossbow does not carry her trope, her overall character does.
I dont even relate her to Swain, because Swain too, is very defined. He's your crooked strategist, a win-by-any means cripple. The bird is there, and it adds to his character, but it doesnt carry his trope, his character does.
The character that I most associate with Quinn...is Leona.
This is because all that I've read of your characterization of Quinn...is Leona. Quinn IS Iron Solari Leona with a crossbow and a bird.
All this talk about wearing armor that "gets the job done," not interested in showing off femininity, all of this stuff is Leona.
Sure you can point out Leona's armor is more "form fitting," Leona has long hair, she has high-heels even, but none of those details detract away from Leona's overall character trope: serious-armored woman. Leona's full body armor is character-defining.
To make a character that is -I mean I can just literally replace all references to Quinn with "Leona" and it would make about as much sense- it's just poor design choices in my opinion.

Why do I care? As a fan of the game I understand that the League champion pool cannot be infinite. Eventually production of champions will end. That's why it's very valuable to me as a fan to enjoy champions that are each iconic and unique, each exploring a specific trope. And it's not like we're out of tropes or anything! I can't expect myself to find every character top of the line trope-defined such that I am appeased, but there should definitely be more attention to this matter.
The way I see it so far, Quinn looks like a cookie-cutter copy of Leona's character, with some new duds. Similar to how Syndra is a cookie-cutter copy of any of those other "voluptuous"-power-females that I referenced earlier.

So don't say "if you don't like it that's perfectly fine."
It should very much concern you if there is talk from the community of not liking it. At the end of the day I think Quinn will turn out great, and will be a fun character, I have few doubts to this. But, by creating her, it's stepping on the character definition of Leona, and diluting what made Leona special. With future champions I feel like there should be an effort to avoid this than saying "that's perfectly fine."
Didn't you read the journal entries? Quinn isn't Leona, she's Forest-Batman.