+3 +2 +1 ... -17 why riot why

First Riot Post
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Flytrap

Senior Member

02-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Infinite Veritas View Post
I can't speak for all Rioters, but I've been in Bronze/Silver for a long time. I've played quite a few games already with the new League System and so far I really like it. Mostly because I do feel like I'm working towards a much more manageable goal. That being said, I haven't reached a series yet where I will qualify for a new tier, but it's fun working towards it, so we'll see what happens
I'm a fan of it as well.


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Janna F Kennedy

Senior Member

02-05-2013

This system is way better than the old. I feel good not being able to lose a tier, and it focus's on a wider range of games and improving over time. I have the confidence to play ranked so much now.


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Kaisha

Senior Member

02-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zydion View Post
I believe Yegg has explained this many times, but I'll try to explain again.

The LP clamping that happens at Division I is due to your MMR being much lower than needed to be in the next tier, as tiers earned are permanent. So in order for the system to be sure that you belong in the next tier, it'll clamp your LP gains when you are close to promotional series to make sure that you can consistently win your games and not just due to a lucky streak.

If you keep winning more than you lose (aka your MMR slowly moves up to the expected level for the next tier), the clamping will go away. Unfortunately, the current implementation makes you feel like you are closer to the promotion that you actually are, then it suddenly slaps you in the face by clamping your LP gain when you reach 90+ in Div I. They have already eased the clamping since Leagues came out and I believe Yegg and his team are working on a smoother LP gain so you can have a better gauge at how far you are from an actual promotion instead of losing more LP than you gain when the clamping happens.

To give you guys a clearer picture of this, I'll use my personal experience from this weekend.
I was 1900 seaon 2, and about 1730 in s3 when Leagues happened. I was placed in Gold Div I.
At first, I was gaining anywhere form 17-25 LP from a win and losing about the same amount unless I had a leaver on my team which made me lose less LP than usual (new system compensates for leaves). Which means that in 4-5 wins I'd be at 100 LP playing my promotional series. However, when I reached around 85 LP, I was suddenly gaining around 3 LP instead.

I agree it felt bad at the time that when I thought I only need one more win to get my promo series instead turned into possibly 5 more straight wins. I got to about 96 LP then lost a game and dropped back down to about 80, wiping a bunch of wins that I acquired. You bet I felt discouraged at the time too. But if you think about it, I was trying to permanently qualify for Plat tier. Assuming 1850 is plat, and my MMR was at 1730 when I started. After 5 wins and 2 loses, with max of 14 Elo per win and losing 11 in the ideal case, my MMR would only sitting at 1778 yet I was already at 85 LP. If I gained the same amount without the clamping I'd only need one more game to qualify for promo series, but in the old Elo system, I'd have needed (1850-1778)/14=6 straight wins and the Plat earned wouldn't even be permanent!!! (keep in mind all the values are in the absolute ideal situation too, I'd possible need more wins in reality) So it became clear to me why I was being clamping and only gaining 3 LP. It was because my MMR was too far from the expected MMR. So in order to permanently earn the Plat tier, I needed to prove myself.

After understanding that, I just kept playing, expecting to have at least 6 wins over loses for the system to no longer clamp me. However, after hovering a couple times around 90LP (losing more than gaining of course), I qualified for my series from winning one game after dropping to 85 LP. I gained 15 LP from that game, which I assumed since I was winning more than I lost, the clamping went away. I eventually went on to winning my series 3-2 now I'm in Plat Div 5. You could tell how tense I was in the last game when Sivir was 0-7 and Teemo was 0-5 and I was losing top. But no one raged and eventually we pulled through and won. It was a great game and the plat now feels well earned knowing that I won't lose it.

Hopefully this clears it up for you guys and give you a little more hope about the new system. I agree the way it's implemented right now can make you feel discouraged because it kinda gives you a false sense of hope then suddenly takes it away. But rest assured it is much better than the volatile Elo system before IMO.
You gotta be kidding right? Whether u win or lose is primarily dependant on trolls, afkrs, champ picks at champ selection, and dcrs. Even if you're amazing you only increase your chance to win above 50% by maybe 2-3%, thats how little a single players skill contributes to their chance of winning/losing. Look how many games in the ELO system it took for players to move up and down and consistently stay there. You guys are completely delusional and this new system is a joke. You really need to get some mathematicians to work at riot because clearly basic stats is even beyond your grasp.

To get a consistent streak of wins is sheer random luck, not skill. Over the course of MANY games, yes skill will matter, but not when considering 2-3 games in a row. What you have is a system that forces you to work your way to the 'top' repeatedly in the hopes that you get lucky enough to manage a winning streak and break through. That's not skill at all.


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perry mason1

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Senior Member

02-05-2013

So, you got rid of elo, but it's still completely there in the background dictating your matchmaking. Why get rid of elo then?


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RoboLions

User Experience Designer

02-05-2013
6 of 6 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dunk Lord View Post
I think one big issue in regards to the feel of the system is that our Elo plays such a huge part in determining our progression rate, yet we can't see it and only realize we're getting ahead of ourselves once we've gained 3LP from a win suddenly. Maybe some sort of visual "level" that goes from left to right depending on our MMR : Div/LP?

So it'd be like this for someone with an MMR matching their current Division/LP:

(Red Zone) |-----------------||------------------| (Green Zone)

Then for someone who's MMR was too low for their current ranking:

(Red Zone) |-----||------------------------------| (Green Zone)

And finally someone who's ready to breeze through the ranks:

(Red Zone) |-------------------------------||----| (Green Zone)

-----------

This way you could leave the Elo part out of it, but at least show us that we're getting ahead of ourselves gradually, and should expect to be in the for long haul.

Y/n?
We are considering adding an indicator like this. I'm not sure if I'll represent it as a line like you have here, but thanks for the idea


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JoeyMakesMagic

Senior Member

02-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisha View Post
To get a consistent streak of wins is sheer random luck, not skill. Over the course of MANY games, yes skill will matter, but not when considering 2-3 games in a row. What you have is a system that forces you to work your way to the 'top' repeatedly in the hopes that you get lucky enough to manage a winning streak and break through. That's not skill at all.
This guy gets it.

Why are baseball playoffs such a crapshoot? Because anything can happen in a short series. Why are league division/tier playoffs such a crapshoot? Because anything can happen in a short series. Both systems suck; the difference is that Riot can actually avoid using this system.


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Mecoes

Senior Member

02-05-2013

Yes this happened to me, won a bunch of game.. then 2 loses i **** the bed in LP.


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Disgustipated86

Senior Member

02-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot RoboLions View Post
We are considering adding an indicator like this. I'm not sure if I'll represent it as a line like you have here, but thanks for the idea
Can we add something that can make some of the players in the lower tiers care more about ranked games?

Run into some people that simply say they don't care about ranked which can be rather frustrating because I care and want to climb the ladder.


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BubbaRoark

Senior Member

02-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crunchdoggie View Post
I feel like this idea reinforces the idea of elo hell. People will see that they should be higher than they are and boom, they're suddenly playing with "scrubs that they can't carry".
It flat out reinforces hell itself. Used to be 1 awful player could set you back 10-20 elo(1 win). Now they can set you back 5 games.


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Rejuvination

Senior Member

02-05-2013

it does seem that luck has too much of a factor in needing so many wins in a row to get to another tier... its not like you are really working towards a goal while improving, you are ramming into something and hoping it works one of the times.