Why do Game Developers think they know what the players want? What games failed you?

First Riot Post
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Wolff Parkinson

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Junior Member

02-05-2013

Morello, I would like to commend you and the Riot staff for doing one thing super well - listening to the fans WITHOUT automatically acting on every single critical opinion.

You take the time to carefully respond to a lot of posters, but sometimes you stand by yours/Riot's decision making and sometimes you agree that a poster has a point. This, I believe, is the good mentality to have.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbT-cW8Zb7o - This video by WowCrendor is a good satirical commentary on what happens if, in theory, a game company were to let fans run a game. And by extension, what would happen if a company did EVERY SINGLE THING that every single person complained about. It would be a huge balance disaster.

I think what a lot of critics don't realize, is that a game company will be criticized for basically doing ANYTHING, including NOTHING. If Riot kept League of Legends IDENTICAL to what it was in season 1 and made no new releases, no new champions, and no balance changes, people would complain that LoL was becoming stale and boring. The inverse extreme, if half the champion pool/item pool was removed and new champions/items replaced those things, people would complain that Riot has "destroyed what made League of Legends fun."

I'm sure what a lot of Riot employees have realized by now though, is that forum posters like us are in the minority of the player base. Most people play League of Legends without ever saying anything to Riot about how they feel about the game. It's these people that Riot has the most difficulty accounting for, yet the designers must account for them in their balance and design issues.

I'm sure everybody has something they "dislike" about League of Legends. At least some minor detail. I'm sure Morello, being part of a TEAM of designers, has opinions about things that the rest of the team don't agree with but even he feels strongly about. Ultimately, League of Legends is not a "perfect game." And I don't think it's possible to make a perfect game while still having diversity and options for players.

But League of Legends is a damn fun game. And a really well designed game. With flaws, yes. But still really good.

And while MANY forum posters have had their complaints about the new ranked system, from what I have seen it has done its job - make ranked more appealing for a wider player base. I have seen a LOT of sub-1200 ELO players start playing ranked after rage quitting that they were "stuck in ELO Hell forever." And they are STILL continuing to play ranked. Only Riot has the actual numbers, but if it looks anything like my personal experience with friends, then the company should have seen a significant rise in the number of ranked players in the past few weeks.

And in that sense, Riot has again accomplished its goal. So nice job Riot .


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dunkmaster ep

Senior Member

02-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
I got a few hours left. Gotta climb that Silver V =/

Yolo Whatsup hitmeup with that Silva Duo Queue homie!

Fa real, I'll carry you bra!


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Carnality

Member

02-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Exactly right, among other things. Last-hitting IS archaic, but is necessary to drive conflict pacing. Another mechanic could replace it, but something needs to exist that accomplishes it.
A gold system similar to GW2 could work for LoL given that the gameplay mechanics have changed since the original inception of the game. I believe every hero released in the past year has had synergy with poke/harass mechanics and the utility tree even pushes this tactic to support.

If you want me to address the difference in gameplay between a quest based MMO and a strategy based MOBA, I'm assuming someone on your team at one point played a WC3 map called Tides of Blood (given the homage) or Desert of Exile.
The gold system was essentially the same as GW2, greater damage dealt meant greater reward, without punishing players for playing aggressively against opponents or playing support.

Players are still obligated to remain in the laning phase for extended periods of time while focusing on securing kills/towers rather than creeps.
Right now the majority of the community that doesn't play on a professional level still judges your ability to play based on your K/D/A and CS (even when you play support) rather than your contributions to a team win.
In the tournament community last hitting creeps seems like a secondary thought to vision/ganks/strategic tower pushes. This system would allow for tournament players to push harder earlier and to participate in more teamfights/duels.


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GeNeTiiKz

Junior Member

02-05-2013

The game that always comes to mind for me is Gears of War. Gears of War 1 was fun because of the shotgun battles, the sniping, the insane ways to wall bounce. But of course that wasn't the intention of Epic Games. So they removed everything the players developed on their own from the game franchise. It would be like Riot making thier own meta and forcing everybody to conform. Everything OP said about oversimplification, etc happened to Gears. Meh.


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The Harlequin

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Senior Member

02-05-2013

Morello, I've always wanted to get an official answer from you. I know it probably will never happen but...

Your stance on dividing the community through multiple different queues is that you'd rather not do it. I personally think changing the 3v3 map the way you did (it needed some tweaks, certainly not a remake into something I'll never play again) made a pretty darn big player base quit the map.

Why exactly are you against the idea of letting us play the old 3s map? Since the new one is basically a NEW map and absolutely not a legacy of the first one, I REALLY REAAAAAAAALLY wish I could just play the old 3s again. I have a strong and sincere feeling that you would get a bigger player base on the old 3s than you would on the new 3s.


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Fireside Poet

Senior Member

02-05-2013

It's funny to me, personally, that you use World of Warcraft as an example and say that it lost "a ton" of players. I know personally I couldn't even stomach playing WoW before Wrath of the Lich King (and I bought Original when it released) because of how incredibly exclusionary the gameplay was if you were not in that top 5% . It really had nothing to do with time playing (I played JRPGs most of my young life, so I knew what it took to spend hundreds of hours on a game). I had no interest in committing 40 hours a week to preparing to play a game for 20 more hours that weekend. I feel THAT is what has been addressed by Blizzard, and save the nostalgics and the elitists (who I feel are similar to those on these forums who gripe about special skins not being so very special), no one has much of an issue with needing to do less mindless grinding to experience the actual purposes of the game.

Another example I can give you is Super Smash Brothers-- I actually played in the competitive scene of SSB for quite some time, and experienced the bridging from Melee to Brawl. There was much crying and gnashing of teeth at the demise of "wave dashing" and "true combos"-- those combos that, if performed correctly, resulted in instant death. While a few hardcore players refused to budge from their "more competitive" SSBM, a HUGE majority of players adapted to the new SSBB, and I would bet that the upcoming SSB will have just as dedicated a following.

lastly, I think it's a little bit condescending to assume that game companies DON'T know what we want. They spend hundreds of thousands, sometimes millions of dollars to LEARN what we want. The problem is that sometimes what the general public wants isn't what is best (see: Tragedy of the Commons, Paradox of Value, etc). And unless you have a vision for your "art" (be it TV, games, books, or anything) it can get lost in pandering to the lowest common denominator.


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Vanra

Senior Member

02-05-2013

Every Final Fantasy since 8. I guess I just don't understand the prioritization of graphics over plot, character development and most importantly fun.


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cF Dawgy

Senior Member

02-05-2013

Yu-Gi-Oh! (Konami) has failed me. They cater the competitive scene to the casual kids that want to 'win' without putting any real effort into understanding the game, thus causing the competitive scene to be a complete and total joke.

I used to love the game, but power creep has completely shredded anything left about the game.

**** you Konami.


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xDevilAirx

Junior Member

02-05-2013

What game failed me? This one.

I enjoy playing it alot. But the treatment of EUW servers and forums it's just TOO bad compared to the NA.


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Bergtau

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Senior Member

02-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanra View Post
Every Final Fantasy since 8. I guess I just don't understand the prioritization of graphics over plot, character development and most importantly fun.
Given that 8 was the worst one in the 4 good 3D Final Fantasies I don't know how you can say that.

Goes 9>10>7>8

7 is only 'amazing' for it being the breakthrough game. 8 was the worst because it was trying not to be in 7's shadow story-wise as well as the coding methods for the PS not being significantly more developed when compared to 9 and 10. 9 is the best because it has the best sort of story arcs in combination with good gameplay. 10 comes after 9 only because the story was a bit meh.

Story-only I'd rate them like this:

9/7>10>8

Gameplay-wise I'd rate them this way:

10>9>8>7 with 8 barely beating 7.