Why do Game Developers think they know what the players want? What games failed you?

First Riot Post
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

SteelerKing

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

02-05-2013

Used to play an online game for years until they made it easier for the newbies and a big player-boom happened. Which was good on one hand, more players, but on the other hand veteran players were left out and things they achieved over years took newer players only days. That fact alone wasn't the toxic aspect of it though, I(and everyone else too) loved having new competition but the new players all brought bad attitudes with them with no respect duo to the easiness of things that they didn't know any other way and basically destroyed the community from inwards out.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Zeer0x

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Member

02-05-2013

@morello

So many recent games got hyped and failed(GW2, D3, SC2).
Im coming from the RTS scene, played red alert 2+yuris revenge. Even tho the balance wasnt that great(in the addon) it was so much fun. But from there its just went downside..
(Hoping for generals 2)

Im really glad about league, with such a simple design. Keep up the good work!


i would like to hear your opinion about Guild Wars 2. I was really excited about that game, but it just turned out to be flop(atleast in my opinion).

For me as a player. The most attractive thing of games is, if you can play it with friends. And for me Guild Wars 2 failed at that pretty hard..
Also i dont like the new weapon+skill system. It kinda takes the away the choices you could do as a player.


What's youre opinion as a developer on those games?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Super Explosion

Senior Member

02-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeer0x View Post
What's youre opinion as a developer on those games?
Game developers, like musicians, can often miss understanding of what makes their game popular.

Like fixing a machine on intuition, but not really understanding the core mechanics behind it.

And sometimes game designers can deliberately opt to take the 'easy way out'.

It would perhaps be better if culturally, games were considered more works of art, as films have come to be. (Perhaps in a few years that will be so!)

As well, a culture shift toward a desire to understand Entertainment from a constructive how-to perspective (rather than nebulous 'creative aether') may also be very helpful.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Healurownbum

Senior Member

02-05-2013

Guild wars 2, i loved the first game rly did. Making builds on all proffs and trying them out in the arena. That freedom is gone trying to combo your build to make something awesome. The game is good tho but its not what i expected. And the mesmer my favo proff in GW, is nothing like it in GW2.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Beas7ie

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

02-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yma Sumac View Post
Are you implying Skyrim > Oblivion?!

Skyrim is a terrible game

it's a not even a game but more like a toy.

The gameplay itself is so stale and boring. Combat is bad, the mechanics are bad, leveling system makes you the master of everything with no consequences (like at least have skill decay so you can't be the master of everything), gold has no value after 2 hours, there is no gameplay after the main story.

In fact Skyrim has degraded to a waifu simulator in where you download dress and quest mods every other day off nexus

unless you are the poor fool who bought skyrim on console, then you should kill yourself.
I'm not even going to take the time to dignify this troll post with a proper response


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Lycaeus

Senior Member

02-05-2013

When it comes down to it, games that are out for more than a few years NEED to change, and do things that are probably going to be unpopular with the "old" crowd, to keep up with the trends.

WoW used to be a gruelling and challenging game that took months on end to get to grips with, and much more time after that to master, but in the era of "easy" and "social" gaming, people are more entitled, want more for less, and (to stay profitable and popular) the product (ie, WoW or LoL) has to change to reflect that.

Sure, it sucks if you're an "original" player, but you hav to see beyond what you think is what's best and see what is best for the game and the game company overall.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Fiya

Senior Member

02-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
It's a tricky topic, because our job is to make decisions based on what players not only want, but need. Let me explain that a bit.

Determining what players want is actually pretty simple - your most invested users tend to be very vocal and will put effort into making sure they're heard (ie; most forumers!) This is a good metric of understanding what players want, at least for high-engagement folks.

What players need is where players don't proclaim a desire for something, but it helps provide something they say they want. Many times, this is more than a single solution - it requires several steps of implementation to reach a result, or takes time to bake in many cases. Let me provide two example of want vs need, and why want cannot be the only driver for developers;

At Riot, we nerf champions. Nerfs are rarely wanted (and many times, unwanted). But, players want to have a fair experience with a variety of options. Additionally, a game without power caps and heavy power creep (something still happening faster than I'd like...) can disrupt the core game design focused around choices, decision-making, and strategy. To accomplish this, we need to nerf champions, even if players don't explicitly want us to.

To use your example, in the pattern of Burning Crusade and Wrath of the Lich King, the changes to easier raid content and more accessibility is actually informed by a want that a lot of players expressed - IE, raids were content that was exclusive from them and they wanted a piece. I respect the guys who make WoW (and its success is a testament), but this is a good example of where the developers should have recognized the core need of exclusivity and the right tuning of that, and steered away from players said they wanted. Personally, I think Burning Crusade is a sweet spot.

The above is a fantastic example of why we have to make tough choices and not always just do what players ask us to do - it's not always the right course of action.

The problem you're speaking to, in my opinion, is when developers think they always have that answer and that being a developer gives you divination into what that is. In my mind, game development isn't about having answers - it's the ways in which you find them.

Our interaction on here isn't just lip-service, it's so we can better optimize decisions around player wants - and explain what players need when they don't want it. This informs us a lot, but we make decisions based on a number of factors - player desires and feedback being one of them.

I hope this helps explain how I feel about this, and how the developer/player interaction looks to me.
Not to be a pushy person regarding it, but do you ever feel like you go wrong with nerfs and ever believe you're wrong?
I understand the thing between want and need, but take Shaco's nerfs for example: Shaco was a champion that fell off really hard late game, so his early game was all he had. To nerf his early game potential felt a little harsh as now, Shaco doesn't really have anything for him.
I'm not saying I'm right, you're wrong kind of thing. I'm just saying, is there a reason to some nerfs that maybe we're not understanding, because I listened to the explanation and that was what came to my mind that you were cutting down his early game, despite his late game - both from experience and opinions from what I know - being possibly one of the worst unless he feeds extraordinarily.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

SFG mAEtb0y

Senior Member

02-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Just me Soraka View Post
No, it's the champions that become unstoppable because of their kits and they way they scale with items, either by becoming too tanky from building straight damage, or by doing damage while building straight tank.
Pretty sure you can't build enough to be unstoppable with just one kill, even if it is first blood. It's enough to win lane pretty handily, but jungle pressure will fix that. Darius is the only champion I can think of that snowballs out of control with no item advantage, and he's up for a fix.
Still, if the champions are the problem, the problem is that they're good for a long solo-lane that will enable them to snowball.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

800eloPubtrash

Senior Member

02-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Exactly right, among other things. Last-hitting IS archaic, but is necessary to drive conflict pacing. Another mechanic could replace it, but something needs to exist that accomplishes it.

Denying is not needed - the game functions fine without its existence and there's plenty of other ways to outplay and outskill opponents.
Replacement: Remove last hitting, give all champions the ability to heal their own minions with autoattacks and abilities, gold is gained per hp healed.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

IS1919c0afb0e5a67513f39

Member

02-05-2013

Hey Morello!

Since you are talking about champions, design, strengths etc etc... Could you tell me what is your opinion on Zyra currently? Ever since the last nerf on her plants being prioritized by turrets, she hasn't been up to par with most of the AP mids. So as I understand by buffing her as a MID champion she will unavoidably be too dtrong of a support, could you give a small buff to her ratios/ main damage to that she can be more rewarding? For example revert her ulti back to it's original damage 200/300/400 or make it's ratio from 0.7 to 0.8. Same for her Q, since it is her main damaging ability, a slight buff to it's ratio would make it more rewarding. I suggested the ratio buffs so that support Zyra will not be affected since she has to build other kinds of items. But AP Zyra would benefit from it, without her becoming too strong again . One of the main reasons I insist on this is because now that most of the champions stack health, she is just not dealing enough damage to stand against her opponents.

And of course same thing for Nami (just a suggestion here though) a buff to her ratios will make her role in the mid lane more consistent, rewarding without making her too strong as a support.

I really hope you answer to this post and share your opinion.
Thank you for your time .