+3 +2 +1 ... -17 why riot why

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Voidgolem

Senior Member

02-04-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tbird View Post
My question is, however, how are these hidden MMR so far off that a +5 win ratio does not qualify someone for promotion? I mean we were placed into these divisions based on this hidden MMR so how is it that my MMR that got me into Bronze I is not good enough after a 5 win streak to get me into at least a promo series for the Silver tier? I mean why wouldn't the gain/loss of league points be somewhat equitable to the gain/loss of MMR since everyone was right where they should be when they were placed? I mean even if a division contains MMR ratings that range from 1400-1500 (which I would say is overshooting it), why wouldn't you gain 10 or 15 LP just like you gained 10 or 15 ELO before? Why would you arbitrarily give us 20 LP a win until your system just decides we're not ready to move up and start giving us little to no LP gains? How could this have been the desired way to deal with this problem and why would this problem even be prevalent at this early stage when everyone's MMR should be as close to the division they are in as possible?
+5 out of how many total games.


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CommandShockwave

Senior Member

02-04-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zydion View Post
I'm not entirely sure on the formulas behind the scenes but it is possible that after your last 2 wins the system deemed you good enough to remove the clamping. Even though you lost one after that the clamping was already gone so you got the full amount for the win. Similar situation happened to me to where I was gaining ~3 LP but then after a couple I got 15 LP for my last match (I was also last pick in that game where everyone else was a plat, maybe that makes a difference too)
I think one big issue in regards to the feel of the system is that our Elo plays such a huge part in determining our progression rate, yet we can't see it and only realize we're getting ahead of ourselves once we've gained 3LP from a win suddenly. Maybe some sort of visual "level" that goes from left to right depending on our MMR : Div/LP?

So it'd be like this for someone with an MMR matching their current Division/LP:

(Red Zone) |-----------------||------------------| (Green Zone)

Then for someone who's MMR was too low for their current ranking:

(Red Zone) |-----||------------------------------| (Green Zone)

And finally someone who's ready to breeze through the ranks:

(Red Zone) |-------------------------------||----| (Green Zone)

-----------

This way you could leave the Elo part out of it, but at least show us that we're getting ahead of ourselves gradually, and should expect to be in the for long haul.

Y/n?


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Just A Game Brah

Senior Member

02-04-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zydion View Post
I believe Yegg has explained this many times, but I'll try to explain again.

The LP clamping that happens at Division I is due to your MMR being much lower than needed to be in the next tier, as tiers earned are permanent. So in order for the system to be sure that you belong in the next tier, it'll clamp your LP gains when you are close to promotional series to make sure that you can consistently win your games and not just due to a lucky streak.

If you keep winning more than you lose (aka your MMR slowly moves up to the expected level for the next tier), the clamping will go away. Unfortunately, the current implementation makes you feel like you are closer to the promotion that you actually are, then it suddenly slaps you in the face by clamping your LP gain when you reach 90+ in Div I. They have already eased the clamping since Leagues came out and I believe Yegg and his team are working on a smoother LP gain so you can have a better gauge at how far you are from an actual promotion instead of losing more LP than you gain when the clamping happens.

To give you guys a clearer picture of this, I'll use my personal experience from this weekend.
I was 1900 seaon 2, and about 1730 in s3 when Leagues happened. I was placed in Gold Div I.
At first, I was gaining anywhere form 17-25 LP from a win and losing about the same amount unless I had a leaver on my team which made me lose less LP than usual (new system compensates for leaves). Which means that in 4-5 wins I'd be at 100 LP playing my promotional series. However, when I reached around 85 LP, I was suddenly gaining around 3 LP instead.

I agree it felt bad at the time that when I thought I only need one more win to get my promo series instead turned into possibly 5 more straight wins. I got to about 96 LP then lost a game and dropped back down to about 80, wiping a bunch of wins that I acquired. You bet I felt discouraged at the time too. But if you think about it, I was trying to permanently qualify for Plat tier. Assuming 1850 is plat, and my MMR was at 1730 when I started. After 5 wins and 2 loses, with max of 14 Elo per win and losing 11 in the ideal case, my MMR would only sitting at 1778 yet I was already at 85 LP. If I gained the same amount without the clamping I'd only need one more game to qualify for promo series, but in the old Elo system, I'd have needed (1850-1778)/14=6 straight wins and the Plat earned wouldn't even be permanent!!! (keep in mind all the values are in the absolute ideal situation too, I'd possible need more wins in reality) So it became clear to me why I was being clamping and only gaining 3 LP. It was because my MMR was too far from the expected MMR. So in order to permanently earn the Plat tier, I needed to prove myself.

After understanding that, I just kept playing, expecting to have at least 6 wins over loses for the system to no longer clamp me. However, after hovering a couple times around 90LP (losing more than gaining of course), I qualified for my series from winning one game after dropping to 85 LP. I gained 15 LP from that game, which I assumed since I was winning more than I lost, the clamping went away. I eventually went on to winning my series 3-2 now I'm in Plat Div 5. You could tell how tense I was in the last game when Sivir was 0-7 and Teemo was 0-5 and I was losing top. But no one raged and eventually we pulled through and won. It was a great game and the plat now feels well earned knowing that I won't lose it.

Hopefully this clears it up for you guys and give you a little more hope about the new system. I agree the way it's implemented right now can make you feel discouraged because it kinda gives you a false sense of hope then suddenly takes it away. But rest assured it is much better than the volatile Elo system before IMO.
Upvoted for a detailed and coherent response even though I didn't agree with the implementation. This post should be extracted as a new thread and stickied at the top of the forum. It would answer a lot of questions.


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Raikas

Member

02-04-2013

ive not seen any clamping yet but like what zydion said about the last pick thing. I believe when the system deems you worthy you will be placed as last pick ( as you are now playing against the New division and are not the highest ranked person in that bracket) ive seen this a few times. it's probably safe to assume that when you are first pick then your rank is higher than your mmr, when your last your mmr is higher than your rank, and if your in between your values are near equal. yes?


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CarePoliceLoL

Member

02-04-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by LouisLeGros View Post
So long story short, MMR/Elo is the most important stat still. Even though MMR/Elo is the most important stat, you no longer can see it and you can only indirectly gauge it from the LP gains being throttled or not to have any idea if you are deemed to be good to advance instead of just having the statistic that everything is based on available for viewing.
This, and also

Riot logic 1:
Hide matchmaking rating.
Base tiers and divisions promotion on matchmaking rating.

Riot logic 2:
Do AMA on reddit.
Don't make a sticky thread on our own forums that would answer most questions players been asking since days now.


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zZBlackmatterZz

Member

02-04-2013

It's odd last night I was actually placed in a group with a silver tier person. I thought we would only have opponents and allies in the same tier.


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Tuesti7c

Senior Member

02-04-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zydion View Post
I believe Yegg has explained this many times, but I'll try to explain again.

The LP clamping that happens at Division I is due to your MMR being much lower than needed to be in the next tier, as tiers earned are permanent. So in order for the system to be sure that you belong in the next tier, it'll clamp your LP gains when you are close to promotional series to make sure that you can consistently win your games and not just due to a lucky streak.

If you keep winning more than you lose (aka your MMR slowly moves up to the expected level for the next tier), the clamping will go away. Unfortunately, the current implementation makes you feel like you are closer to the promotion that you actually are, then it suddenly slaps you in the face by clamping your LP gain when you reach 90+ in Div I. They have already eased the clamping since Leagues came out and I believe Yegg and his team are working on a smoother LP gain so you can have a better gauge at how far you are from an actual promotion instead of losing more LP than you gain when the clamping happens.

To give you guys a clearer picture of this, I'll use my personal experience from this weekend.
I was 1900 seaon 2, and about 1730 in s3 when Leagues happened. I was placed in Gold Div I.
At first, I was gaining anywhere form 17-25 LP from a win and losing about the same amount unless I had a leaver on my team which made me lose less LP than usual (new system compensates for leaves). Which means that in 4-5 wins I'd be at 100 LP playing my promotional series. However, when I reached around 85 LP, I was suddenly gaining around 3 LP instead.

I agree it felt bad at the time that when I thought I only need one more win to get my promo series instead turned into possibly 5 more straight wins. I got to about 96 LP then lost a game and dropped back down to about 80, wiping a bunch of wins that I acquired. You bet I felt discouraged at the time too. But if you think about it, I was trying to permanently qualify for Plat tier. Assuming 1850 is plat, and my MMR was at 1730 when I started. After 5 wins and 2 loses, with max of 14 Elo per win and losing 11 in the ideal case, my MMR would only sitting at 1778 yet I was already at 85 LP. If I gained the same amount without the clamping I'd only need one more game to qualify for promo series, but in the old Elo system, I'd have needed (1850-1778)/14=6 straight wins and the Plat earned wouldn't even be permanent!!! (keep in mind all the values are in the absolute ideal situation too, I'd possible need more wins in reality) So it became clear to me why I was being clamping and only gaining 3 LP. It was because my MMR was too far from the expected MMR. So in order to permanently earn the Plat tier, I needed to prove myself.

After understanding that, I just kept playing, expecting to have at least 6 wins over loses for the system to no longer clamp me. However, after hovering a couple times around 90LP (losing more than gaining of course), I qualified for my series from winning one game after dropping to 85 LP. I gained 15 LP from that game, which I assumed since I was winning more than I lost, the clamping went away. I eventually went on to winning my series 3-2 now I'm in Plat Div 5. You could tell how tense I was in the last game when Sivir was 0-7 and Teemo was 0-5 and I was losing top. But no one raged and eventually we pulled through and won. It was a great game and the plat now feels well earned knowing that I won't lose it.

Hopefully this clears it up for you guys and give you a little more hope about the new system. I agree the way it's implemented right now can make you feel discouraged because it kinda gives you a false sense of hope then suddenly takes it away. But rest assured it is much better than the volatile Elo system before IMO.

Please reply to this one question.


If players lose their sense of accomplishment and feel no sense of gain or empowerment...what makes them want to keep playing ranked? To me it doesn't seem fun to go on a massive winning streak and then not feel rewarded for it. It also is less fun to win 2/3 of your games and feel no sense of accomplishment whatsoever. So i ask again, what makes players what to keep playing ranked if it does feel fun. To me this is the most important part of playing a game. Players should feel like winning mattered and they should be having fun when playing the game of their choice. Did riot feel players were having too much sense of fun in s1 and s2 so they tried to fix this problem? This is an actual question. I don't expect a response but it sure would be appreciated


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Faemles

Senior Member

02-04-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by My R Key Broke View Post
curious how many rioters play in silver or bronze division for extensive periods of time.
I just played a rioter. And im only bronze Div 2


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CommandShockwave

Senior Member

02-04-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldbutgr8 View Post
It's odd last night I was actually placed in a group with a silver tier person. I thought we would only have opponents and allies in the same tier.
You still get matched with players according to your MMR, so if you have silver MMR, it will give you players as such.


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Elkirus

Senior Member

02-04-2013

"The LP clamping that happens at Division I is due to your MMR being much lower than needed to be in the next tier, as tiers earned are permanent. So in order for the system to be sure that you belong in the next tier, it'll clamp your LP gains when you are close to promotional series to make sure that you can consistently win your games and not just due to a lucky streak."


So you say the system makes sure you're not on a lucky streak by clamping your LP... i get it... but what if im on a not-so-lucky streak?

The thing is... does the system have a way of saying... oh this guy has lost 5 in a row... maybe he had an afk... maybe he had 2 games ina row with an afk (has happend to all of us i guess)... maybe he got one of the insta-lock ap mid tryndamere first item chalise...

My question is... does the system actualy prevents the losing streaks as much as the lucky streaks?

The system punishes so hard im scared of even trying out ranked... everyone talks so bad about the community and the ranked trolls + the new system that id really just play dominion for FUN (yeah i play a game to have fun, im weird)