@Xypherous Lets continue this Sion discussion

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CynicalGiant

Senior Member

02-01-2013

Xypherous posted a rather inrtiguing response to a troll thread, which he does often, but the thread was closed before the thought experiment he put forth could be replied to by a large amount of people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous
So, here's a thought experiment - albeit not one that should be taken too seriously:

If Sion's kit had 7 ranks in each skill and 4 ranks in the ultimate - does the kit suddenly become a versatile kit that has two viable build paths and level up paths?

Or, alternately, let's think about what if Sion could trade skill points for stat points as an extra 5th skill. Does his kit now become a versatile kit that has two viable build paths and level up paths?
This would make him quite the interesting character, allowing him to invest skill points into stats like movement speed would be pretty interesting.

You could also go with the path of he can invest skill points into 3 categories: Defense, Offense and Magic. The former gives him more armor, magic resist and potentially also health or tenacity. The second gives him AD, AS and potentially also armor pen or movement speed. The third gives him AP, CDR and potentially also magic pen or spellvamp.

I wonder if making him an extreme variant of a Dota 2 hero would make him balanced in this game? You could take this idea to the extreme and give Sion all of his abilities at level 1, and they all only scale with his level. When he levels up he gets skill points to invest into his stats rather than his abilities, but otherwise his per-level base stats are either non-existent or incredibly low.


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Arai Kitsune

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Senior Member

02-01-2013

I say with Sion, better to figure out what his unique gimmicks are, scrap the whole champion, and start from the ground up. In fact, I'll post later today with an example. The fact is, some champions are just too horribly designed to be fixed without reworking pretty much everything, and he's the epitome of that.


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Twistana

Senior Member

02-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arai Kitsune View Post
I say with Sion, better to figure out what his unique gimmicks are, scrap the whole champion, and start from the ground up. In fact, I'll post later today with an example. The fact is, some champions are just too horribly designed to be fixed without reworking pretty much everything, and he's the epitome of that.
Yi, Sion, Trist etc..... all were designed to be highly influenced by items not just their kits....

All three need a rework imo so that all three can perform better as either AD or AP and yes that includes making both AP and AD viable.... which is a hard thing to do without giving another clunky kit.


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Worst Evelynn BR

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Senior Member

02-01-2013

I would think the first thing you have to figure out is what does Sion do well, in either build path?

AD is good at EVENTUALLY trucking through the enemy team with his ultimate, similar to a Nasus who is well farmed. Along with this, his ultimate is a very powerful sustained heal for his whole team if he can get a piece of an enemy. So in this case, he falls along the lines of a melee AD hypercarry, with innate tankyness from his E farming. this build lacks the burst capabilities in early-mid game that AP Sion does.

AP is an effective bursty type of caster early on, along with having a reliable way to soak damage with his shield, and the capabilities that come with any champion with a ranged stun. This build lacks the sustain he can provide to his team as AD, which forces him into a more of a pseudo support role later in the game when he's no longer able to one-trick-pony people in lane.

NOW, the question is...which of these do people find more enjoyable to play, and more competitive? Do we want ANOTHER AP burst champion that can stack health without items, or the embodiment of the word 'tank', wading into the enemy team and just hammering whatever is closest, providing sustain to everyone around him? Based on his lore, this is what he was originally conceived to do. So what needs to be done in order to make him do that better?

My opinion would be to get rid of his shield, and replace it with some sort of self-cleanse similar to what Gangplank has, but not as powerful as Olaf and Alistar's ultimates. A simple get out of one CC free card with a decent cooldown that would prevent him from spamming it 3-4 times per engagement. Then maybe you could shift his current passive to that ability as a passive effect, then free up some space to have something more inventive for his passive, such as a similar effect to what Wukong and Irelia get, gaining bonus stats based on how many champions are nearby.


Just my thoughts. I've always found AD Sion to be the more enjoyable build to play, and would love to see it be the one that gets focused on. There really doesn't seem to be a way to make AP Sion stand out as not gimmicky compared to champions that are truly meant to be AP without doing a complete overhaul of his entire vibe, from his lore to his look to his abilities.


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CynicalGiant

Senior Member

02-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcticosa View Post
I would think the first thing you have to figure out is what does Sion do well, in either build path?

AD is good at EVENTUALLY trucking through the enemy team with his ultimate, similar to a Nasus who is well farmed. Along with this, his ultimate is a very powerful sustained heal for his whole team if he can get a piece of an enemy. So in this case, he falls along the lines of a melee AD hypercarry, with innate tankyness from his E farming. this build lacks the burst capabilities in early-mid game that AP Sion does.

AP is an effective bursty type of caster early on, along with having a reliable way to soak damage with his shield, and the capabilities that come with any champion with a ranged stun. This build lacks the sustain he can provide to his team as AD, which forces him into a more of a pseudo support role later in the game when he's no longer able to one-trick-pony people in lane.

NOW, the question is...which of these do people find more enjoyable to play, and more competitive? Do we want ANOTHER AP burst champion that can stack health without items, or the embodiment of the word 'tank', wading into the enemy team and just hammering whatever is closest, providing sustain to everyone around him? Based on his lore, this is what he was originally conceived to do. So what needs to be done in order to make him do that better?
I kinda wish they could a find a way to keep both viable. Sion is just as bland and unoriginal as an AD or an AP, but the stereotypical nature of the zombie warrior is what makes people like him.

More people enjoy playing him as AP, so I imagine thats where Riot would take him but they would have to do more work to get him there than to make him AD so I dunno.


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Worst Evelynn BR

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02-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by CynicalGiant View Post
I kinda wish they could a find a way to keep both viable. Sion is just as bland and unoriginal as an AD or an AP, but the stereotypical nature of the zombie warrior is what makes people like him.

More people enjoy playing him as AP, so I imagine thats where Riot would take him but they would have to do more work to get him there than to make him AD so I dunno.

To make AP Sion competitive, he needs a third AP ratio. And neither his E nor his ultimate provide any avenues for an AP ratio without making NO SENSE why they have them. And the reason people play him AP right now even though it literally cuts his number of viable spells in half is because AD is in a bad place balance-wise. AD is currently VERY easy to kite, and takes a VERY long time to ramp up to any kind of carrying capacity.

I still think people find the idea of AD Sion more appealing, but they prefer to play AP because it's currently the only build that's remotely viable, which is sad considering how much of his kit becomes useless.


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DeepVoicedGiant

Junior Member

02-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by CynicalGiant View Post
Xypherous posted a rather inrtiguing response to a troll thread, which he does often, but the thread was closed before the thought experiment he put forth could be replied to by a large amount of people.



This would make him quite the interesting character, allowing him to invest skill points into stats like movement speed would be pretty interesting.

You could also go with the path of he can invest skill points into 3 categories: Defense, Offense and Magic. The former gives him more armor, magic resist and potentially also health or tenacity. The second gives him AD, AS and potentially also armor pen or movement speed. The third gives him AP, CDR and potentially also magic pen or spellvamp.

I wonder if making him an extreme variant of a Dota 2 hero would make him balanced in this game? You could take this idea to the extreme and give Sion all of his abilities at level 1, and they all only scale with his level. When he levels up he gets skill points to invest into his stats rather than his abilities, but otherwise his per-level base stats are either non-existent or incredibly low.
This would make him an incredibly interesting character, but it already kinda feels like this in-game. He feels non-existent without items.


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CynicalGiant

Senior Member

02-01-2013

bump