Can atk speed slows caused by items be countered?

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TealNinje

Senior Member

01-25-2013

How are melee based champions being shut down by Randuin's Omen? They still deliver 80% of their DPS. They still have 3 multiplicative stats (AD, attack speed, critical chance) that have very high caps. They still have item choices they can make to puncture any amount of armor.


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Private Riem

Senior Member

01-26-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by TealNinje View Post
How are melee based champions being shut down by Randuin's Omen? They still deliver 80% of their DPS. They still have 3 multiplicative stats (AD, attack speed, critical chance) that have very high caps. They still have item choices they can make to puncture any amount of armor.
They're doing the same damage, 20% slower.
Do you realise how much of a disadvantage that is? Especially since the slows stack.


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FreeGothitelle

Senior Member

01-26-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Private Riem View Post
They're doing the same damage, 20% slower.
Yes...that means their dps is 80% of what it would be otherwise....
That's only with auto attacks, most bruisers rely on abilities to do damage rather than autos (fiora and nocturne are the exception i guess?). Nocturne isn't really supposed to be a damage dealer anyway, he's built tanky so he can dive the adc, fear them, while shrugging off cc with spell shield. Randuin's/frozen heart don't do anythig to stop that.
So that really only leaves fiora as a melee fighter that's hurt a lot by randuin's (andtrynd who isn't viable)

The items are perfectly balanced and no changes are needed.


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Fourt3hLuls

Member

01-26-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Private Riem View Post
They're doing the same damage, 20% slower.
Do you realise how much of a disadvantage that is? Especially since the slows stack.
exactly, thats a HUGE disadvantage that you cant do ANYTHING to counter. The more atk speed you have, the more it takes away. Clearly you have to use a melee champ relient on autoattacks to understand this issue. thats a 20% slow that cant be countered by anything then you have to factor in CC and other **** youll get hit with on top of the 20% you cant do anything to stop.


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Fourt3hLuls

Member

01-26-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by TealNinje View Post
How are melee based champions being shut down by Randuin's Omen? They still deliver 80% of their DPS. They still have 3 multiplicative stats (AD, attack speed, critical chance) that have very high caps. They still have item choices they can make to puncture any amount of armor.
All the armor puncture, crit strikes, attack damage in the world is worthless if your attacking so slow that the other team has time to gank your ass before your targets even down to half. and no, its not just the 20% that youll be hit with, stack onto that 20% stuns slows taunts passives, etc which all target ADCs (specifically melee adcs because they basically have a giant target drawn on them for CC) add it all up and youve got a 20% slow you cant do anything to counter and then all the CC effects which can have their durations reduced by tenacity, but in all honesty theres no real way to stop them all short of running cleanse which is a stupid move to begin with because it still doesnt stop cold steel. Yes noc has a spell shield but that stops 1 spell, then goes into cooldown at which point your essentially a sitting duck if your target still has more than half health.

by itself 20% may not sound like much, but thats just the guaranteed 20% the rest as they say is yet to come...


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TealNinje

Senior Member

01-26-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourt3hLuls View Post
All the armor puncture, crit strikes, attack damage in the world is worthless if your attacking so slow that the other team has time to gank your ass before your targets even down to half. and no, its not just the 20% that youll be hit with, stack onto that 20% stuns slows taunts passives, etc which all target ADCs (specifically melee adcs because they basically have a giant target drawn on them for CC) add it all up and youve got a 20% slow you cant do anything to counter and then all the CC effects which can have their durations reduced by tenacity, but in all honesty theres no real way to stop them all short of running cleanse which is a stupid move to begin with because it still doesnt stop cold steel. Yes noc has a spell shield but that stops 1 spell, then goes into cooldown at which point your essentially a sitting duck if your target still has more than half health.

by itself 20% may not sound like much, but thats just the guaranteed 20% the rest as they say is yet to come...
This isn't a 1 versus 5.

If you get targeted by all the spells of the enemy, either you are out of position, you are targeting the wrong opponent, or the enemy is ignoring your team to get to you.

The first two are problems you can fix; the third one is the most ideal scenario you could ask for.


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Shadow647

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Senior Member

01-26-2013

buff blade of the ruined king and add an item that gives atk speed, movement speed and slow reduction for melee champions? Both seem like good ideas to me.


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67chrome

Senior Member

01-26-2013

Attack Speed Slows are just another defensive multiplier like Health and Armor. If someone gets 20% damage reduction or 20% more health it accomplishes exactly the same thing as a 20% attack speed slow does - increasing their EHP indiscriminately of whatever attributes you utilize to bolster your auto attack DPS. As such you just build more Attack damage, attack speed, critical strike chance, armor penetration, or cooldown reduction to make up that DPS loss. Itemization in LoL is there to allow you to build super-tanky, glass-cannon, or somewhere in-between. If someone builds full-tank they're going to scale to a point it takes longer to kill them then it did at level 1, if you build full damage you're going to kill anything that didn't counter all that damage with an equal amount of defenses faster than a level 1 fight would otherwise end. When dealing DPS it's pretty important to choose targets you can survive long enough to kill and avoid targets you can't. When playing a tanky champion it's important to know what fights you can pick your team can win and avoid picking fights your team will loose. Randuin's Omen doesn't do anything unusual in that sense regardless of what champion you play.

So yes, you can counter attack speed slows. In exactly the same way you counter health and armor. With more damage.


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Shadow647

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

01-26-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by 67chrome View Post
Attack Speed Slows are just another defensive multiplier like Health and Armor. If someone gets 20% damage reduction or 20% more health it accomplishes exactly the same thing as a 20% attack speed slow does - increasing their EHP indiscriminately of whatever attributes you utilize to bolster your auto attack DPS. As such you just build more Attack damage, attack speed, critical strike chance, armor penetration, or cooldown reduction to make up that DPS loss. Itemization in LoL is there to allow you to build super-tanky, glass-cannon, or somewhere in-between. If someone builds full-tank they're going to scale to a point it takes longer to kill them then it did at level 1, if you build full damage you're going to kill anything that didn't counter all that damage with an equal amount of defenses faster than a level 1 fight would otherwise end. When dealing DPS it's pretty important to choose targets you can survive long enough to kill and avoid targets you can't. When playing a tanky champion it's important to know what fights you can pick your team can win and avoid picking fights your team will loose. Randuin's Omen doesn't do anything unusual in that sense regardless of what champion you play.

So yes, you can counter attack speed slows. In exactly the same way you counter health and armor. With more damage.
More damage = still reduced to half. Building more damage won't just "work" because all of your damage IS basic attacks. Therefore reducing your attack speed by 20% reduces your damage by 20%. Building more damage still results in a 20% reduction in damage just as building more attack speed still results in a 20% reduction in damage. The best thing to do is ignore these targets, however if it is the ad carry who has this it is pretty hard to ignore it.


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FreeGothitelle

Senior Member

01-26-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow647 View Post
buff blade of the ruined king and add an item that gives atk speed, movement speed and slow reduction for melee champions? Both seem like good ideas to me.
Ghostblade gives attack speed and movement speed, boots give you reduced slow effectiveness (swiftness or treads).
Zephyr gives attack speed, movement speed (the most of any non boots item ignoring actives), and tenacity.
That item you want them to add already exists.

Kingblade buff would be nice though.


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