@Xyph, is resists being less effective than health in S3 bad design?

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hashinshin

Senior Member

01-24-2013

why do developers even respond to the "AP mids are so useless now!" whackjobs. Legitimately 0 proof exists that AP mids are useless now, and in fact AP mids still hold "most nerfed class in season 3." Now either AP mids were all secretly allowed to be OP for years or the Season 3 changes actually benefit them far more than anyone is willing to admit.

Oh also there's the fact that every high ELO/tournament team still has 1-2 AP champions, and tanks/bruisers get to fight over whats left, with the odd AD caster picking up for an AP caster.

Hell it seems to me that the problem really exists in people not wanting to learn new champions in AD casters and just want to keep playing Karthus Anivia and Orianna all day. Which won't really be a problem considering AD casters aren't even mandatory to learn anymore. Hell, biggest winner of Season 3 is probably Kassadin.


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Xypherous

Systems Designer

01-24-2013
18 of 27 Riot Posts

Quote:
why do developers even respond to the "AP mids are so useless now!"
Mostly because it's kind our duty to ferret out things that might not be obvious on first glance. You respond to feedback that seems odd by trying to find the signal underneath it all that's causing the feedback - but first you have to investigate the noise. XD

In short, the way people feel about something typically isn't wrong - because something has caused them to feel that way - but it's just kind of our job to figure out what is causing them to feel that way and fix it if possible.

So, I mean, in this case, you throw up questions or examples and hope for further info that tries to explain it more. Context is always fun.


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IS13940001471ffbdf28d0e

Senior Member

01-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
I chose % current because its a marginally safer effect that lets us be a little more aggressive with the numbers on the item. It tends to also create a better playstyle dynamic because it's not entirely self-contained - you need % current health plus something else in order to murder someone - whereas % max health only needs more of itself, for example.



Yes, this is true - however, runes are something we're much much more careful about touching because players have significant investment into their rune sets as is. If we have to do rune adjustments we will - but it's something that we want to traditionally be very cautious about as there's a lot more potential for disruption here than anywhere else.

Xypherous please. Runes are so broken. Seriously, they give so much stats and it is so unbalanced. Like, AP runes are much weaker than AD runes for example. Magic Penetration mark are not even more good, it is much better you use hybrid penetration and do more damage with your autoattack( You trade 2 magic pen for 8 armor pen). Also Lifesteal runes are much better than Spellvamp runes. It is so unbalanced. Please do something Xyph.


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Sessamo

Senior Member

01-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinDelMarr View Post
I play Xerath quite a bit, and with his range and Spell Pen added power in the form of health countering might put him over the edge. He's constantly trying to build AP so his damage can outlast health, his problem arises when people reach the 3k+ health range, since his 2.5K damage combo (3k+ with E) is all he's got. I find when teams stack health and regen is when he seems weak, though I may be expecting myself to carry too hard. Since he is doing True damage to most enemies he does alright in many situations. It's just difficult for him because someone can build 6k gold worth of stats that Xerath has to go Full Build in order to beat. If you fall behind in relation to the health stacking Bruisers and Tanks you generally stay behind, unless your team can match your power

I would really like it if Locus of Power applied its range increase on DFG. It already takes advantage of the spell pen, adding the range seems logical to me. When Xerath goes into Locus he would really be able to assassinate, though Riot may be afraid of this very scenario
Uh, okay. I haven't played Xerath in like a year, my personal observation is that he's really negligible in many situations. But if a Xerath player feels like he's okay then who am I to argue.


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Phil Nye

Senior Member

01-24-2013

On a related note, since you're on the side of preferring health as a defense, do you see the inherent problems with Trundle's ult being in the current state of being more resistance oriented? His potential power went up initially when people generally had only one dedicated tank/initiator at the beginning of Season 3, but now that 2-3 champions feasibly build high health (and in this current iteration, practically everyone), Trundle's ult might feel pretty limp with the mere flat health + % resist steal.


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Xypherous

Systems Designer

01-24-2013
19 of 27 Riot Posts

Quote:
On a related note, since you're on the side of preferring health as a defense, do you see the inherent problems with Trundle's ult being in the current state of being more resistance oriented? His potential power went up initially when people generally had only one dedicated tank/initiator at the beginning of Season 3, but now that 2-3 champions feasibly build high health (and in this current iteration, practically everyone), Trundle's ult might feel pretty limp with the mere flat health + % resist steal.
Hm.. Interesting. Will investigate when I get the chance. Trundle usually does well when 4 people build glass and one person builds high damage - but if he has no decent targets, this might be significantly worse.

Might be something to look at. Thanks!


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Xhandel

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Senior Member

01-24-2013

still saying, Xypherous, what do you think abou Void staff dealing the same amount of damage than rabbadons past 80 mr, rabbadons should be the item who granted the biggest amount of AP damage, almost for the vast majority of the AP carry champs, but there is an option with a cost 800g lower than hat, then, why to build hat, the other options granted better survivability and other cool efects like cdr and all of them are cheaper.

The best AP item is now too useless to be the Tier 1 AP item


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Luvatar

Senior Member

01-24-2013

Xyph, the thing that really troubles me is that I see no acknowledgement of the strength of HP's double dipping power. You are pretty much stating that Health is about equal or only slightly subpar with armor in terms of protection against AD's, and in your list of pro's and cons of HP you casually omit that it also protects you from AP's.

How is this huge benefit not taken into account when discussing Armor vs Health? You are compared the specialized stat (armor) to the generalized stat (HP), and making HP on par.

You more than anyone should know what happens when a generalist is on par with the Specialist's on their distinctive niche.

Quote:
This might be true - but if you need an arbitrary damage distinction limitation to get a entire class of characters to be played - I'm pretty sure there are some flaws in it.

I mean, why not split things into three types? Physical, Magical and Arcane? This would allow a whole new class of arcane characters to be part of every team!

Basically, yes it solves the issue of needing to bring multiple types of classes into the fray - but if this is the only benefit it does - then all it encourages is fairly artificial distinctions in the end.
Call it what you want, but we need this distinction. The line is blurring, and the champion diversity is narrowing.


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Cheeto101

Senior Member

01-24-2013

Your awesome Xyph, thanks so much for the replies.

Its great that someone from Riot takes the time to reply to GD's concerns. Big thumbs up!


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BadgerDrool

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Senior Member

01-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post

Yes, this is true - however, runes are something we're much much more careful about touching because players have significant investment into their rune sets as is. If we have to do rune adjustments we will - but it's something that we want to traditionally be very cautious about as there's a lot more potential for disruption here than anywhere else.
I've always felt that game mechanics like LoL's Runes and Masteries interfere with balance. I'm okay with Masteries but Runes I've always disliked. It seems a shame to me that Armor Yellow and MR Blues are so potent.

I think part of the issue is that Runes are an "unfinishable" IP sink so diversity in which ones are good hurts players. Makes me wonder what a world where Riot massively adjusts how much stats Runes give and drops IP costs by 66%.

Though if I'm honest I'd also like to see Runes combined into a single Mark, Glyph, Quint, and Seal. Runepages generally involve a lot of a single one anyway. Lower variability is easier to work with design wise. I suppose a 1:3 Ratio might work better with 3 Marks, Glyphs, and Seals alongside 1 Quint.

Then I think about how it would impact Free2Play monetization in the form of IP boost. Which becomes a giant tangled ball of thorns.