@Xyph, is resists being less effective than health in S3 bad design?

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KevinDelMarr

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Could you look into Xerath's W applying the range increase to DFG? As someone who wants to take a chunk out of high health (his true counter) and can't really afford to get close, I think having it's range increased by 400 would help in a lot of situations. It already applies the spell penetration, giving it the full effect only seems logical

I also fear for his strength a bit as more health is being bought, since he's already punching through the minimal MR people have, the more people with 3.5-4k health the weaker his presence becomes. I'm aware that his range and Spell Pen makes extra added power potentially concerning (though Lux in terms of range and Utility says otherwise), The current trand could pusj him out a little unfavorably, though I do feel like in 80% of situations he's a strong pick, though it will depend if high health stacking becomes a common occurence


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Sessamo

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinDelMarr View Post
I'm pretty sure Liandry's wasn't designed with burst mages in mind. Riot often throws around the term "control Mage" as the ideal candidate, a Champion like Rumble, Singed, or Swain who is doing continual damage in small increments, to really take advantage of the current% health. And if you look at the recent patch, it lost 10 AP but gained 100 health, a sign that it shouldn't be prioritized on someone who wants high AP (and Burst Mages want nothing more than AP). If a Burst mage is weak, then they could receive individual buffs, though someone like Veigar or Syndra will usually kill their target in the primary combo

I look at Burst Mages as Ranged Assassins, they want their initial combo to kill, since their CD's and low defenses don't usually allow them to recombo a new target. Too strong and they insta-kill, too weak and they don't provide too much at the team.
No, I'm definitely aware that Liandry's is better on someone with continual spell effects like Swain than it is on Xerath. Though the item does have some pretty powerful synergies with Brand, and you would think that Liandry's would be the default answer for AP burst to go with now that health is the de facto defensive stat.

I'm really impressed with how much season 3 has opened up lanes and builds for everybody, but in my experience many of our classic burst friends (Brand, Leblanc, Xerath) still aren't really strong. Maybe they'll be better with Armguard, I dunno. From what I've seen, Ziggs is pretty strong against AD mid, maybe the Armguard will help that become their area of expertise.


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Ecaroh

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Senior Member

01-23-2013

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Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Somewhere, in my unspoken secret dreams, I'd like to rip Kayle's passive off and give her her old one back.



Xypherous, please, please Do this, That old passive was just so much fun and amazing for her scaling off everything.

As for the topic, yeah, I'm not a pro theorycrafter, i'm not good with crunching the numbers, so i'm not going to comment too much on fear of looking stupid, but one thing I see with how resistances are in general, is that I'm finding mysefl building 2-3 High armor/health items per game and only one even moderate MR item unless the team i'm fighting only has on source of noticable physical damage, because there's not enough options for MR, and that with the LW/Cleaver and crazy amount of armor pen/shred going around, I need to have 2-3 times the MR i have as armor, because i'm guaranteed to lose at least a quarter of it from a cleaver assuming nothing else, and effectively be only having 60~% of what my armor value actually lists in most fights, but my MR is pretty much safe, I know i'm just rambling, but any comment on the impact or lackthereof of MR in this health vs resistances argument would be appreciated.


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Raptamei

Senior Member

01-23-2013

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Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
I'm actually a fan of health being the primary defensive stat - mostly because health has severely intrinsic features that resistances don't, that lets it be more easily controlled.
You are correct that armor is a percentage based survivability boost. But if you can't balance complex concepts like "flat hit points" and "percentage hit points" then there is a problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
3. Health is a more obvious indicator of high durability than resistances - just due to how basic UIs work.
Did you really just say armor is too hard to understand? You guys are so afraid of falling into the Dota trap of needless complexity that you are dangerously close to treating the players like they are mentally handicapped. Dota is not a very good game, but at least it does not assume I am retarded.

--

It is obvious that you allow your own preferences to leak into the game. You like health more than armor, so you made health more useful than armor. This is the sort of thing people used to joke about in WoW: "Blizzard obviously plays warlocks".

You joined Riot after mechanics like health and armor were already in place, so you should either work with what you have or remove the mechanics you don't like. Don't leave armor lying around as a useless noob trap just because you hate the fact that it doesn't add lines to your health bar.

Also the whole point of having both armor and magic resist is to force teams to have both AD and AP characters. Health is universal, and as a result people are seizing the opportunity to get rid of their squishy and relatively weak AP mids and replace them with bruisers. Like the game doesn't have enough unviable champions as is.


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Fox P McCloud

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Senior Member

01-23-2013

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Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
It's actually multiplicatively reducing. The attack speed slows that you get lower their total attack speed by a percentage. Which means that a combination of Randuin's + Frozen heart will lower opposing carry DPS by 40% if you're being attacked.
Are you positive about this? I know in S2 Frozen Heart reduced total attack speed but Randuin's proc only reduced bonus attack speed (but the active reduced total); was this changed in S3?

Quote:
Potentially - and this is going to be pretty controversial - but burst damage isn't really designed to have counterplay either because the ideal scenario for a burst mage is death without the possibility of reaction.

It's just something we typically don't support in large quantities either way without caveats like the range of DFG or the conditional 'you must poke at them for a while' in Liandry's case. A scenario where unrestricted burst damage is allowed to do its thing isn't actually all that great - which is why many Burst mages have secondary utility fall back patterns.
This is hugely disappointing; does this mean we'll likely never see a burst mage ever again (just as it seems we'll never see a melee ADC ever again)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Magic Pen: Magic penetration builds have been thought to be too strong for a while - Tripen + CDR was directly competing with Deathcap,
No offense, Xyph, but deathcap is now virtually worthless---if the PBE changes go through this will only be exacerbated even more; the item gives 120 AP and +25% AP.

Contrast this with Hourglass, next patch, which will have a very nice new build path, will also give 120 AP and give you an amazing active on it for about the same price---the impact it'll have on on your damage will be negligible in comparison to going with DC (talking 64 damage on someone like Annie), but the defensive and active on it more than outweighs this.

Even more Egregious is Deathfire Grasp; which will give 120 AP, 15% CDR, and nuke+damage amp, and it will cost even less than it currently does, on live; the CDR alone will be enough for some mages to want it over deathcap, but once you factor in the nuke, it makes even stronger.

If these two changes go through, it'll be the death bell of Deathcap.


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silentpartner

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Senior Member

01-23-2013

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Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Some of it is probably some residual effects from S2 balance, I definitely agree. We'll be looking at that when we get the chance. I think we can convert some of the % shred on some characters to flat shreds, for example.

Somewhere, in my unspoken secret dreams, I'd like to rip Kayle's passive off and give her her old one back.



Yes, burst mages do get hit when health becomes the dominant statistic - mostly because, it turns out that health is a pretty good substitute for magic resistance when the going gets rough.

There's various implications of that - but that's why you see things like Liandry or DFG existing. We're doing an AP pass next patch to help mages out - and after that we can start looking at specific characters if they still feel weak.
Do this and then we can run away together into the sunset <3


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Xypherous

Systems Designer

01-23-2013
17 of 27 Riot Posts

Quote:
You are correct that armor is a percentage based survivability boost. But if you can't balance complex concepts like "flat hit points" and "percentage hit points" then there is a problem.
Armor is indeed a percentage based survivability boost - but one that is multiplicative with every other form of survivability boost. Intrinsically, you need to balance around the most abusive case, rather than the least abusive case.

Armor has so many synergies, especially with other forms of sustained healing / shield effects that the weakened state is a better reflection of how strong the statistic actually is.

Quote:
Did you really just say armor is too hard to understand? You guys are so afraid of falling into the Dota trap of needless complexity that you are dangerously close to treating the players like they are mentally handicapped. Dota is not a very good game, but at least it does not assume I am retarded.
It's not hard to understand - it's simply that our basic UI sells health better than armor. It's far more important that information be presented as fast and cleanly as possible without jumping through additional mathematical hoops in the player's heads because that allows them to make faster and cleaner decisions.

In short, focusing on elements that your UI does well doesn't mock your players understanding of the mechanics - it clears away chaff that forces them to take longer to make good decisions. You want your UI to communicate everything the player needs to know as quickly as they can so that the player can get to the strategic part of making decisions rather than parsing numerical information.

So, this is a terrible analogy - but what if we wrote the entirety of our UI in Runic? It probably wouldn't be more complicated to understand - but it is pretty crappy when it comes to making decisions because it merely adds an additional information processing step before meaningful decision making.

Quote:
You joined Riot after mechanics like health and armor were already in place, so you should either work with what you have or remove the mechanics you don't like. Don't leave armor lying around as a useless noob trap just because you hate the fact that it doesn't add lines to your health bar.
I'm actually pretty sure that armor isn't a useless "noob trap" at the moment - we've merely adjusted the time period which armor starts becoming relevant too far in the opposite direction. Randuin's Omen is objectively the best anti-carry item in the game, for example, in no large part due to it's combination of armor / health / as debuff - something that it wouldn't accomplish with health / as slows alone.

Quote:
Also the whole point of having both armor and magic resist is to force teams to have both AD and AP characters. Health is universal, and as a result people are seizing the opportunity to get rid of their squishy and relatively weak AP mids and replace them with bruisers. Like the game doesn't have enough unviable champions as is.
This might be true - but if you need an arbitrary damage distinction limitation to get a entire class of characters to be played - I'm pretty sure there are some flaws in it.

Why not split things into three types? Physical, Magical and Arcane? This would allow a whole new class of arcane characters to be part of every team! Basically, yes it solves the issue of needing to bring multiple types of classes into the fray - but if this is the only benefit it does - then all it encourages is fairly artificial distinctions in the end.

If characters are weak and unviable - then yes, you can solve it with a type of system that forces you to play with weak and unviable characters by making it so that the ideal composition is weak. However, I'm not sure that really solves anything about those characters to begin with.


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Xhandel

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Senior Member

01-23-2013

but Xyph, What you can say about Void Staff dealing the same amount of damage than rabbadons past 80 mr, rabbadons seemed to be the Tier 1 of all AP items, but now, void staff its at the same lvl than rabbadons, with a cost 800g less than the hat.


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BadgerDrool

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Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Some of it is probably some residual effects from S2 balance, I definitely agree. We'll be looking at that when we get the chance. I think we can convert some of the % shred on some characters to flat shreds, for example.

Somewhere, in my unspoken secret dreams, I'd like to rip Kayle's passive off and give her her old one back.

Do it. I looked forward to Kayles remake and haven't been able to bring myself to play her much since. ;P


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KevinDelMarr

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sessamo View Post
No, I'm definitely aware that Liandry's is better on someone with continual spell effects like Swain than it is on Xerath. Though the item does have some pretty powerful synergies with Brand, and you would think that Liandry's would be the default answer for AP burst to go with now that health is the de facto defensive stat.

I'm really impressed with how much season 3 has opened up lanes and builds for everybody, but in my experience many of our classic burst friends (Brand, Leblanc, Xerath) still aren't really strong. Maybe they'll be better with Armguard, I dunno. From what I've seen, Ziggs is pretty strong against AD mid, maybe the Armguard will help that become their area of expertise.
I play Xerath quite a bit, and with his range and Spell Pen added power in the form of health countering might put him over the edge. He's constantly trying to build AP so his damage can outlast health, his problem arises when people reach the 3k+ health range, since his 2.5K damage combo (3k+ with E) is all he's got. I find when teams stack health and regen is when he seems weak, though I may be expecting myself to carry too hard. Since he is doing True damage to most enemies he does alright in many situations. It's just difficult for him because someone can build 6k gold worth of stats that Xerath has to go Full Build in order to beat. If you fall behind in relation to the health stacking Bruisers and Tanks you generally stay behind, unless your team can match your power

I would really like it if Locus of Power applied its range increase on DFG. It already takes advantage of the spell pen, adding the range seems logical to me. When Xerath goes into Locus he would really be able to assassinate, though Riot may be afraid of this very scenario