@Xyph, is resists being less effective than health in S3 bad design?

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Sessamo

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
I chose % current because its a marginally safer effect that lets us be a little more aggressive with the numbers on the item. It tends to also create a better playstyle dynamic because it's not entirely self-contained - you need % current health plus something else in order to murder someone - whereas % max health only needs more of itself, for example.
I suppose that's fair. It seems like the overall stats on BFT seem more beneficial to burst AP since it gives %max, spell pen, mana regen and CDR. Are you guys happy with the balance of Liandry's currently? It seems to be a pretty successful item on everybody, though I haven't seen many burst AP champs pick it up.


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FyshinaTux

Senior Member

01-23-2013

@Xyph: First of all, there seems to be a bug with Tear of the Goddess, where you don't actually have to wait for its CD before you can charge it again (urgot's Q for example, will charge the tear on its CD, instead of having to wait for Tear's CD).

That being said, I've been reading this thread for nearly half an hour, and when I first started I wanted to say that it felt like you guys had a good idea with the health vs resistance changes, but that you may have just tweaked them a little TOO far.

After having read through the majority of the thread though, it appears Riot has already thought ahead of me on this one.

Carry on (still wanted to mention the Tear glitch where a red would actually see it).

EDIT: Either that or the CD animation is off on the Tear in the item slot... thought you should know either way.


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Xypherous

Systems Designer

01-23-2013
14 of 27 Riot Posts

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Xyph look at the argument though, my tank reduces their dps by 40% (if randuins even procs or hits them with active) with 6.5k gear they reduce my armor by 60% minimum with >6k of items. Unless I cc them first and my carry gets them I really don't have any way of surviving their attacks. Health really becomes the only option since carries can't mitigate 60% of champions health with 2 items, and that's one of the reasons why Nunu, Malphite, Shen, and Olaf are seen so much over Alistar, Rammus, Galio. Its a numbers game, and forces a paper rock scissors problem where I can actually be punished for buying resistance over raw health.
DPS Reductions don't quite work the same way as penetration does. Reducing someone's attack speed by 40% causes you to live 66% longer - as their total DPS goes down.

They can't reduce your armor by 60% minimum - maximum % shred is 54.5% right now, which reduces your lifespan by some amount depending on how much armor you have. If you have 100 armor - they've reduced your lifespan by 30%. If you have 200 armor, they've reduced your lifespan by 36% - and this plateaus at 54.5% if you have infinite armor.

Quote:
@Xyph: First of all, there seems to be a bug with Tear of the Goddess, where you don't actually have to wait for its CD before you can charge it again (urgot's Q for example, will charge the tear on its CD, instead of having to wait for Tear's CD).
Tears actually lies about its cooldown a bit - this is working as intended though. Basically, you can get two tears charges in 6 seconds. No more than two tears charges per 6 seconds.


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Pushover

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
*snip*
For example, let's take the following case here:

You have a Bruiser with 1000 health, 300 armor fighting an AD carry, versus a Bruiser with 4000 Health and 100 armor.

1. % Armor Penetration is equally as effective in both cases in fighting the bruiser - because of how effective health works.
Wait what? Doesn't Bruiser 1 have 4000 EHP (the way armor works is that each point of armor is +1% EHP, right?), Bruiser 2 has 8000 EHP. Wouldn't it be bruiser 1 with 700 armor vs bruiser 2? In that case, 50% armor pen would make Bruiser 1 have 350 armor, or 4500 EHP vs Bruiser 2 having 6000 EHP. Not a mathematically sound example, if the way I understand armor is correct.
Quote:
2. However, Life Steal - is far more effective in the second case - whereas it is completely destroyed in the first case.
While you argue that health makes lifesteal stronger, it also makes it weaker, since the person who gains the health without resistances also loses health easier. Probably a net gain overall for lifesteal, since in general lategame if the ADC is able to freely attack without getting bursted 100-0, they aren't going to die because of lifesteal, even if they went Warmogs.
Quote:
*snip*
Let's take another example, in lane:

Let's say I'm fighting a primary physical damage dealer, whose probably itemized some sort of flat penetration. I have something like 800 health and 50 armor. How much gold do I need to spend to double my life-span?

1.
Well, I could buy 800 health and have another 1200 effective health! Success!
2. Or I build 150 armor and have another 1200 effective health!
*snip*
If they itemize flat armor pen, it is incredibly unlikely that you have 800 health and 50 effective armor, unless you already itemize armor. Champions with a Brutalizer and flat armor pen marks and 21 offense will have about 28 armor pen. Assuming someone like Ezreal with armor seals, he has 25 armor and 430 health at level 1. By level 6, he has 830 HP and about 43 armor. Against 28 armor pen, his effective health is ~950. He is actually at roughly a break even point against physical damage. Considering chances are that the champion already has a Doran or 2, they already have a bit more health than 830, closer to 1000.

Obviously in order to get tanky vs a certain type of damage, a mix of health and resistances is needed. A champion with 2000 health and 100 armor is not going to benefit as much from 1200 health (+2400 EHP) or from 160 armor (+3200 EHP) as compared to 600 health and 80 armor (+3280 EHP).

Also, at the rune problem, why not buff some of the health runes? Only health/level seals see actual play (less so since they were for AP mids), and then health quints are seen on Shen maybe and no one else.


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Xypherous

Systems Designer

01-23-2013
15 of 27 Riot Posts

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Wait what? Doesn't Bruiser 1 have 4000 EHP (the way armor works is that each point of armor is +1% EHP, right?), Bruiser 2 has 8000 EHP. Wouldn't it be bruiser 1 with 700 armor vs bruiser 2? In that case, 50% armor pen would make Bruiser 1 have 350 armor, or 4500 EHP vs Bruiser 2 having 6000 EHP. Not a mathematically sound example, if the way I understand armor is correct.
My bad. Sorry. Corrected the numbers and the argument. Eugh - I knew something was off when I wrote it. >_<

Thank you for the correction. I am actually surprised that my poor math wasn't corrected earlier in the thread.

Quote:
If they itemize flat armor pen, it is incredibly unlikely that you have 800 health and 50 effective armor, unless you already itemize armor. Champions with a Brutalizer and flat armor pen marks and 21 offense will have about 28 armor pen. Assuming someone like Ezreal with armor seals, he has 25 armor and 430 health at level 1. By level 6, he has 830 HP and about 43 armor. Against 28 armor pen, his effective health is ~950. He is actually at roughly a break even point against physical damage. Considering chances are that the champion already has a Doran or 2, they already have a bit more health than 830, closer to 1000.
This is completely true - However, the more flat armor penetration the enemy has, the less additional armor you need to equal health in this case. The example is weighted in favor of armor. If they have 28 armor penetration, you only have 22 armor, and thus you'll need another 122 armor to double your effective health.


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Kavoul

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Member

01-23-2013

Could you please respond to *anything* i wrote in my post (last post on page 10)? I don't see why it was overlooked :/


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KevinDelMarr

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sessamo View Post
I suppose that's fair. It seems like the overall stats on BFT seem more beneficial to burst AP since it gives %max, spell pen, mana regen and CDR. Are you guys happy with the balance of Liandry's currently? It seems to be a pretty successful item on everybody, though I haven't seen many burst AP champs pick it up.
I'm pretty sure Liandry's wasn't designed with burst mages in mind. Riot often throws around the term "control Mage" as the ideal candidate, a Champion like Rumble, Singed, or Swain who is doing continual damage in small increments, to really take advantage of the current% health. And if you look at the recent patch, it lost 10 AP but gained 100 health, a sign that it shouldn't be prioritized on someone who wants high AP (and Burst Mages want nothing more than AP). If a Burst mage is weak, then they could receive individual buffs, though someone like Veigar or Syndra will usually kill their target in the primary combo

I look at Burst Mages as Ranged Assassins, they want their initial combo to kill, since their CD's and low defenses don't usually allow them to recombo a new target. Too strong and they insta-kill, too weak and they don't provide too much at the team.


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Felza

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Senior Member

01-23-2013

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Originally Posted by Viper Blood View Post
Xyph, you also didn't tune the character that had penetration in their kit in season 2. Like Kayle in example, she was balance in season 2, but now with the penetration changes she is so strong.
the penetration changes did not AFFECT HER AT ALL. she worked the exact same way as she did in season 2. Her passive is % reduction not penetration which always came before penetrations.


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timtwins

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Senior Member

01-23-2013

Personally, I feel like the major reason why warmogs has become so popular is because of the meta shift. Teams are trying to end games quicker now. Towers often die in the first 10 minutes and then a snowball occurs because of this into the other lanes.
What is the best way to siege a tower in a 5v5 situation? Assuming it is still early into the game, you only have about 3-4k worth of gold to work with. Your team is already ahead of the other team by about 500 gold a player because of the global pressure. You could buy 1500 gold worth of armor and another 1500 worth of mr, OR you could just buy warmogs and have innate sustain with tower diving health. Now when you get into that first 5v5 situation at about 10-15 minutes (AGES earlier than it used to be), you can use the lead you have and effectively dive tower.

While lifesteal may be more effective and shields may be less effective with health, none of that matters when the jungle and top are forcing a dive on your team when they are already ahead.

Imo, this change was brought about by meta changing and health revaluation. It has simply become a great way to snowball the game quickly. ADC's and AP's can't possibly have enough dmg to overcome 1-2 warmogs on a team when they are already that far behind and the game has only been going on for a short amount of time.


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Xypherous

Systems Designer

01-23-2013
16 of 27 Riot Posts

Quote:
-Ap items. Just about every ability power item was either nerfed in overall value. I'll give a few examples:
- Deathcap- overall cost reduced by 400g, but ability power reduced by 20 and bonus ap reduced from 30% to 25%. This seems to me to be quite a nerf.
- athene's- overall cost reduced by only 150g, but ap given reduced by 30g.
-lich bane- overall cost reduced by 470g. 32 magic resistance taken away. passive changed to deal less dmg AS WELL as no longer benefiting from your magic penetration, since it now deals physical dmg.
Short answer: All tier 3 items were nerfed across the board - to lower their gold premiums. Across every class.

Reread lichbane - it now deals magical damage instead of physical damage.

Wraith / Wolf camp: This was a change that stemmed from pro feedback - as it meant that the only AP mids who were worth picking are mids that could farm Wraiths and Wolves. As this is no longer as dominant a tactic - more divergent AP mids can be played.

Magic Pen: Magic penetration builds have been thought to be too strong for a while - Tripen + CDR was directly competing with Deathcap, for example - it was simply hidden because Haunting Guise was considered undesirable.

Quote:
What is the best way to siege a tower in a 5v5 situation? Assuming it is still early into the game, you only have about 3-4k worth of gold to work with. Your team is already ahead of the other team by about 500 gold a player because of the global pressure. You could buy 1500 gold worth of armor and another 1500 worth of mr, OR you could just buy warmogs and have innate sustain with tower diving health. Now when you get into that first 5v5 situation at about 10-15 minutes (AGES earlier than it used to be), you can use the lead you have and effectively dive tower.
Somewhat agree with the tower diving case. Recall in season 2, we tuned towers to have less damage but more armor penetration to stop tower diving. With the re-evaluation of armor and health availability, this is why I've said that we probably need to go back and re-evaluate this particular ratio.