Looking for Sejuani Feedback

First Riot Post
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DEagleEye

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meddler View Post
Removal of the 10% slow would indeed impact the benefit Sejuani gets from Liandry's, which is definitely a point of note r.e. sustained damage and therefore teamfight threat, no argument there. On the other hand balancing her state around a single item, thereby leaving her vulnerable to changes to that item and to the meta (high health builds as at present) that item performs best in makes it harder to get her to, and keep her in, a balanced, well performing spot. Consequently it's a thing to watch but not a primary point of concern.
Liandrys isnt an item all sejuani's build however. Liandrys is when you wanna do damage. And the only works out if you happen to have another tank on your team. So slow just added awesome mechanics to her, decision making.
However

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meddler View Post
We are experimenting with removing the slow from her autos and instead giving her a new passive, with the mark system then being a passive built into Permafrost. Loss of a 10% slow is indeed a removal of some power, we'd be looking to compensate for that though of course and, at end of day, a 10% slow doesn't actually offer that much effect, particularly because it's often occuring with another slow (e.g. red buff) and thererfore suffering the secondary slow penalty which reduces it's strength to almost nothing.
Building the passive of the marks into permafrost works and losing the 10% slow on autos. Currently, apprehensive, it al depends on what this new passive is. I hope its still something thematically relevant, toward her Slowing everybody to the point where they cant do much. Any ideas on what this new passive will be?
So that we, her playerbase, can make suggestions, etc. I dont want changes to be sprung on her without us at least being able to offer suggestions/changes first. Please (insert pouting puppy here)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Meddler View Post
The charge responsiveness changes actually include a few things - detecting an enemy's been hit slightly quicker some of the time, reducing the brief pause at the end of the charge that occurs sometimes, preserving move orders if they're in the same direction as the charge, improved passing through terrain and finally adjusting the charge range indicator to match the actual distance traveled (the current indicator's slightly longer than the actual distance - I'm guessing one got reduced in live balancing before her release and the other got missed).
Thats actually awesome, however...
Seeing as the 10% slow is being removed, could we, instead of fixing the range inidcator so that it becomes smaller, and shows the actualy range. Maybe buff the range to match the indicator? (or further) That could offset the (some of the) loss of power from the removal of her passive


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DEagleEye

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whyumai View Post
I find she's weak in the jungle, I find her easy to counter jungle, and I find that she's weak against invasion.
Shes average to strong at farming the jungle, shes only susceptible to counter jungling/invades early, and if the sej players know what they are doin, they will counter-act it.

I get invaded when i play sej a few times, it isnt hard to counter-act it, escape with q, heal up if you need and do some invading of your own.


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Meddler

Lead Champion Designer

01-23-2013
15 of 38 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raviance View Post
Sure the Eve remake was fine and Sejuani did need some adjustment but a rework of her kit? Its not like "stealth is broken"
Definitely won't be looking at anything as large as Eve's rework, agree that her issues aren't the sort that need massive kit changes on that sort of scale.


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Ding an Sich

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meddler View Post
Definitely won't be looking at anything as large as Eve's rework, agree that her issues aren't the sort that need massive kit changes on that sort of scale.
Meddler is there any cause of a alarm for the stronger diversity and "deck stacking" that has been appearing for some champions?

Now I bring this up only in the case of newer champions having more to them, while of course keeping the same 4 button template they've always had (minus those with changeable abilities like elise/nid/jayce/etc). If we look at sejuanni she has alot of inherent potential power, I feel even after you give her proper QoL among other things, that if she doesn't match the new theme of S3 she will still be largely left out. Which riot has said is fine to fine in some circumstances (standard burst mages like Annie/brand have largely gone out of style competativly, but still hold some merit in lower elo/modes).

However: casters like annie/brand it is much easier to either increase damage/cds, add nerfs, etc then it is to touch someone like sej or more akin like syndra now. Almost all of their abilities have multipurpose feeding effects off each other that feels really cool and gives depths, but makes it that much more a steep drop when one of those things is nerfed.

So even if Sej doesn't fit the current meta, when she finally does hit, and is maybe perceived as op (as urgot and ezreal were pre/mid s2) what can rightly be done without causing such catastrophic tumbles? Because even when you have an inbetween (irelia for example isn't new, but she isn't one of the oldest unpolished bruisers/fighters in the books) as we've seen the situation is then made that they either will always hard fail to particular circumstances (which can make them unplayable if the factors are easy enough to use), or make them priority because they can always just do well enough to win.

I'd be all for either adding/taking power away, but that would exacerbate and replicate the problem even if in the beginning it is a healthy step towards equality. It might be just as easy t make 1-2 central themes of a kit so important and malleable that when you tweak them the rest of the kit can more naturally settle.


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Thessalonike

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Goguma XO View Post
Meddler, thank you so much for keeping us posted. Please go ahead and do what you guys need to do with Sejuani's passive. It's expected that a portion of the user base will always complain at ANY change, not just because it's different from what they're used to but because it SOUNDS different than what they're used to.

10% slow from Sejuani's passive is so lackluster currently. She's pretty much the only jungler I play these days and I love her to death, but her passive sucks outside of marking for Permafrost. I almost always (mass) mark with Q anyway, and occasionally with her ult. Anyone who's played Sejuani enough will have experienced plenty of times where someone you're trying to stick to with auto attacks gradually get away from you despite the slow, until the Frost mark wears off and get away from you completely. Worst case once was when a BOOTLESS Sona walked away from me with just her E after Permafrost duration. Once Permafrost wears off, that 10% slow is as good as nonexistent.

I main jungle and support(Skarner/Sona in S2 and Sejuani/Sona in S3). And I can honestly say that the 10% slow from Frost almost never make or break a gank. It usually comes down to whether you and your lane mates can get the job done in time while Permafrost is on or if your W still had enough duration to finish them while you chase them towards their tower. I seriously doubt anyone new to Sejuani without any prior knowledge has ever gotten the impression that "wow, her auto attacks really make it near impossible for enemies to get away from me." Skarner's Q is only a 2 second duration conditional slow but by comparison is extremely potent and satisfying even at rank 1.
That's not really fair is it? Some of us are not complaining just to complain we are not complaining because its a change and not complaining because it is different. I just prefer any changes to further distance herself from other tanks so that we can have "different". It's Riots game and they are going to do what they need to do even without your blessing.

I would prefer the mark be separated from frost, that is have the mark apply frost and have abilities work off of the mark instead of the frost first and then if need be buff the strength. Either 7/14/21% or a straight 20% or leave it at 10% maybe 15% and AoE splash her AA.

I don't want a "steroid" of sorts because its different but because it makes Sejuani more of the same. I really liked Meddlers option 5 "more risk, more reward". That's exciting, challenging and different than "plod & plop" activate steroid play.

Its the reason I enjoyed Ice tanks in City of Heroes.. taunting was great, the taunting aura was great but she had zero resistance except vs ice and she didn't have positional defense so learning how to time taunts and Hibernate became the risk reward... no tank could taunt like an ice tank... but they couldn't really take it without practice either.


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RIP Todd Reese

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meddler View Post
Definitely won't be looking at anything as large as Eve's rework, agree that her issues aren't the sort that need massive kit changes on that sort of scale.
Are you redoing Sej partly because of people's idea that she needs to be a full tank when in fact she functions better as an AP bruiser of sorts?

When I first started playing sej, nothing about her kit said for me to be the tankiest person in the game. Instead, it was stack magic pen and health, characteristics of AP bruisers (see elise). It's like kat's who used to rush deathcap; not a terrible option, but you get so much more from magic pen. Same applies for sej players who immediately go super defensive and stick with that all game, not the worst option but could be better.

It's no wonder people say she doesn't do damage, because they have no magic pen, and its no wonder they say she's relatively squishy, because nothing in her kit makes her tankier, except for her w which simply encourages health stacking. It just seems like to me people haven't quite discovered her kit.


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STKuja

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Like many people who've played her quite a bit she feels a bit squishy early on for a tank and her sustain in jungle is pretty bad+a bad duelist makes for VERY easy counterjungling. I'd love to see her base stats buffed, I think her kit is pretty strong except for the 10% slow


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Zealin

Member

01-23-2013

Ideas:
1: Gets defensive stat buffs based on how many targets are affected by frost (So when she crashes into whole team "A good Q land" she becomes more tanky. So more stats for more players hit, less for when sticking to 1, but still a stat buff. Also helps jungle tanking when you hit the pack.) Or something along those lines.

2: Return the Damage/Health ratio on W to how it was, if not a little higher.. Its really her only damage and has to be stuck to the target to do damage anyway and only maximizes damage on the target with frost on it. So its only 1 for the most part, aside from the short times when Q lands on multiples and ult in the same fashion. Granted the way health is as a defensive stat now is kinda OP and would be twice as OP on her for she increases her damage with it. You could balance around it. TLDR; Maybe more damage on W

I have more but not enough time to post. Just ideas.


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Naezma

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Buff her passive first of all. She's from the Freljord, not a 30 degrees house.
Raise her base damage, her spells, and her spell ratios so she can build AP-Tank instead of 5x warmog's to rely on her W for damage.

You should make her Permafrost splash, which will slow enemy champions nearby an enemy minion/monster it is casted on by half and dealing half.

Basically, Sejuani lacks laning potential and I think she's the worst lane champion in game. You have to put her in the jungle until she gets her ultimate and Shurelya's, then she can finally play.


Good job Riot, I'm glad you've finally come to working on Sejuani.

So.. Karma, my favorite support, is next.. Right? (Buff le Mantra...)


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Thessalonike

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meddler View Post
Definitely won't be looking at anything as large as Eve's rework, agree that her issues aren't the sort that need massive kit changes on that sort of scale.
Thanks for that bit.

I was wondering about your option 5) More risk, more reward. Sejuani to me is a different breed of tank. I mentioned in another post about an Ice Tank in the game City of Heroes and how they were pretty much the risk vs reward tank of that game.

With 2 taunting auras and one that damaged it was hard for an Ice Tank to lose agro and easy to steal it but without an Ice tanks built in Zhoynas they would surely die to many foes, but staying in Zhoynas to long also lost aggro so it became a fun risk vs reward senerio, it was if I do it right there is no way my team dies, if I do it wrong we all die.