Are Champions As Awesome As They Could Be? @Morello @Feralpony @IronStylus @Xypherous

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Morello

Lead Designer

01-23-2013
16 of 22 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by This champ is OP View Post
Well, if the idea well runs dry, why not crowdsource? I'm sure people would love to throw their ideas around in a forum specifically designed for dream champs.

Thresh isn't exactly oozing originality. It's like hecarim, draven and blitz copulated.

Why not make another champion similar to nidalee that has ranged attacks in both forms? I find nidalee to be quite the epitome of utility in a champion. :|
It's not the ideas, it's solving the problems from ideas that can be challenging. If Tresh isn't original to you, then I don't feel you're going to like where we're going.


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phatcat09

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Unique doesn't always mean original y'know.


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Fox P McCloud

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Senior Member

01-23-2013

LoL definitely isn't as awesome as it could be.

Melee carries still suck, are neglected, are the most homogenous group in the game (both aesthetically and mechanically), there's only 3 (with one being reworked into a fighter) and it seems as if Riot will put it off indefinitely: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...php?p=33834373


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Morello

Lead Designer

01-23-2013
17 of 22 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by ItemsGuy View Post
Could you go into more depth on this, please? Would this be satisfaction in terms of fulfilling a role, or a more technical level of satisfaction, which is where you have the most experience (again, bringing up DotA as an example--heroes have very specific technical uses with high rewards when executed, like Batrider's tar-coating mechanic or Storm Spirit's ultimate)?

I'd like to tie this in with the whole "thematic unity helps make champions satisfying" (Rengar is really where I started loving LoL--I spent an entire bot game just jumping out of that top bush, and I still do just that every now and then; I'd say that's where the combination of well-developed and defined themes and technical juiciness come together to make something incredible, which is where my whole redesign project started in the first place), but you guys may have very different reasoning behind it--and I may be misinterpreting this game-feel joy (but I like to think this isn't the case as my first impression makes more concrete sense)!
Satisfying from an action->result standpoint. To keep things "clean" and free of superfluous mechanics, you want each aspect of a skill to exist for a reason. The question in mind was along the lines of "if this has a ground effect, how much do we have to nerf the nuke" and vice-versa. Basically, by adding another effect, does the skill have to be made so much weaker on both that the skill feels bad because it's doing two things poorly, instead of a single thing well.

In this case, it might have been OK, but designing mechanical satisfaction does lean towards a "less is more" design paradigm where possible.


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Morello

Lead Designer

01-23-2013
18 of 22 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox P McCloud View Post
LoL definitely isn't as awesome as it could be.

Melee carries still suck, are neglected, and it seems as if Riot will put it off indefinitely: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...php?p=33834373
Man, if that's the biggest not-awesome thing in LoL, I'd be super happy :P


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Fox P McCloud

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Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Man, if that's the biggest not-awesome thing in LoL, I'd be super happy :P
It's a really big sore spot with me though; when I first joined, you guys were issuing language that was indicative that it was something you'd work on, eventually---1 year later, that language is still being used---here we are now and that same line is still being stated.

There's only 3 melee carries in the game and none of them are good; what are you going to do about this?

Or should melee ADC players just give up the hope have having this class be viable or there ever being a consistent stream of new melee ADCs being released?


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Vishibus

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Since you're here Morello, and I already made a topic about this without replies I have to ask:
Is there a chance for Nautilus to get his W cooldown at level 1 reduced? It's 26 seconds and it's insane. He can't even get to wolves to golem without having to activate it early.


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phatcat09

Senior Member

01-23-2013

To reiterate my point.

Unique -- generally means how "not straight forward" something is i.e creative implmentation

Original -- Never been seen before.

I find Thresh's kit creative, but I don't find any of the elements original. I believe originality comes from how you have to use the abilities vs the abilities themselves.

Lee Sin - Original
Karthus - Unique
Orianna - Original
Graves - Unique
Syndra - Unique
Master Yi - Original

At least that's how I feel about it.


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YamiBelgarath

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Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox P McCloud View Post
It's a really big sore spot with me though; when I first joined, you guys were issuing language that was indicative that it was something you'd work on, eventually---1 year later, that language is still being used---here we are now and that same line is still being stated.

There's only 3 melee carries in the game and none of them are good; what are you going to do about this?

Or should melee ADC players just give up the hope have having this class be viable or there ever being a consistent stream of melee ADCs?
I don't think "melee ADC" is really a viable thing in the end game because in order to get into melee range to carry, you have to be basically immune to CC and tanky enough to not insta-die. Even then, it creates this weird problem because at the highest level, players are coordinated enough to CC any melee attempt at carrying into death, and at the lower levels of player, characters like pre-nerf Tryndamere will faceroll just by right clicking.

However, characters like Lee Sin, Pantheon, Fizz, Olaf- you can still run the mid game, and if you play well enough you can carry pretty hard. Olaf especially, if you get fed, get some good items, and turn on that ult at the right you can hammer virtually any character in the game into the ground.


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Ding an Sich

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox P McCloud View Post
It's a really big sore spot with me though; when I first joined, you guys were issuing language that was indicative that it was something you'd work on, eventually---1 year later, that language is still being used---here we are now and that same line is still being stated.

There's only 3 melee carries in the game and none of them are good; what are you going to do about this?

Or should melee ADC players just give up the hope have having this class be viable or there ever being a consistent stream of new melee ADCs being released?
I'm not sure how far you are willing to accept time as a factor with riot. The exact same language for stealth changes was effectively over and over again the same message. And as with stealth you would find points where someone like Xyph would talk about whats behind the curtain and the issues that have surfaced.

However I will always disagree that it is Lol's biggest flaw only because it doesn't even encompass 20% of what LoL is. This is not to marginalize it either, or make it seem trivial and unimportant, it is simply always good to remember that all good things come in time. so while they can in theory put 45% of the game design/big brain work force into alleviating any real problems with melee's, that would be extremely suffocating for upkeeping and improving LoL holistically.

While all factors of Lol have importance, most of the most noticeable ones don't necessarily garnish the most in attention and upkeep. So while melee's by themselves, or adc's by themselves garnish a reasonable portion of respect in of themselves, the whole and combined efforts (do champions in any field even work) is a bigger target to focus on.