New AD item for high health targets

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Vuther

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kholdstare13 View Post
I played Kog seasons 1 and 2 as a bot lane on-hit carry (occasionally mid) and ALWAYS rushed bloodrazor first.
And this proves its value how?


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67chrome

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Or Blade of the Ruined King could just get reverted to dealing max health damage rather than current health damage - which would cause it to do more or less exactly the same thing as the purposed item.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vuther View Post
Warwick was pretty much the only person Bloodrazor wasn't an awful idea on.

Bringing it back wouldn't change that or make on-hit viable.
I'm fairly certain someone did the math concerning how Madred's Bloodrazors actually dealt enough damage that a season 2 combination of Madred's Bloodrazors + Black Cleaver actually outputs more DPS than Infinity Edge + Phantom Dancer, and both builds costs almost the same amount.

It wasn't an awful idea to get Madred's on most champions reliant on auto-attacks, 40 AD with 40 AS is actually a considerable boost to damage. You just didn't get movement speed with it.

The meta is generally determined by things that are 1-2% better than the next best thing by those who really test it out, and potentially on average (so there are still clearly situations were non-meta standard builds can be better). Just because something isn't the meta standard doesn't make it awful, or ineffective in every way. And remember - stacking resistances was more important in Season 2 than it is now, so countering tanks with armor penetration was generally a more logical approach than countering them with health-shredding, as you ran into resistances more frequently.

That said I'd rather see Blade of the Ruined King get moved to %Max Health rather than %Current Health to actually counter health-stacking. You need way to much armor penetration for it to even get to the same effectiveness as the passive on Madred's, which was honestly less of a reason to get Madred's than the sizable chunk of AD and AS it offered, and AD and AS on the same item.


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Vuther

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by 67chrome View Post
I'm fairly certain someone did the math concerning how Madred's Bloodrazors actually dealt enough damage that a season 2 combination of Madred's Bloodrazors + Black Cleaver actually outputs more DPS than Infinity Edge + Phantom Dancer, and both builds costs almost the same amount.

It wasn't an awful idea to get Madred's on most champions reliant on auto-attacks, 40 AD with 40 AS is actually a considerable boost to damage. You just didn't get movement speed with it.

The meta is generally determined by things that are 1-2% better than the next best thing by those who really test it out, and potentially on average (so there are still clearly situations were non-meta standard builds can be better). Just because something isn't the meta standard doesn't make it awful, or ineffective in every way. And remember - stacking resistances was more important in Season 2 than it is now, so countering tanks with armor penetration was generally a more logical approach than countering them with health-shredding, as you ran into resistances more frequently.
There was still the problem of the times when you got a third item, thus creating something of a brick wall for on-hit at like 30 minutes when a Bloodthirster would add a ton of life steal and damage for IE + PD or Last Whisper being self-explanatory while Madred's was likely to attack a bit faster with a third item.

Bloodrazor in general mostly had value for fighters due to lack of scaling outside of attack speed while fighters needed major durability items instead anyway and it was still a decent damage item on its own. Unfortunately, Wit's End or Wriggle's was highly more usable to the same champions who had any chance of considering Bloodrazor due to much lower cost.

Carries still shouldn't have been building it.


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Kholdstare13

Senior Member

01-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vuther View Post
There was still the problem of the times when you got a third item, thus creating something of a brick wall for on-hit at like 30 minutes when a Bloodthirster would add a ton of life steal and damage for IE + PD or Last Whisper being self-explanatory while Madred's was likely to attack a bit faster with a third item.

Bloodrazor in general mostly had value for fighters due to lack of scaling outside of attack speed while fighters needed major durability items instead anyway and it was still a decent damage item on its own. Unfortunately, Wit's End or Wriggle's was highly more usable to the same champions who had any chance of considering Bloodrazor due to much lower cost.

Carries still shouldn't have been building it.

On-hit was not for most champions, but always useful. If you were actually going for the on-hit, crit becomes a worthless stat and you would never want to consider something like PD. Bloodrazor gave you the heaviest damage and some armor. Wit's End gave you MR for durability against ap, and decently priced flat damage. Malady gave smaller damage, but a shred to make the whole build work better. Boots could be berserker or sorc, depending on preference. Frozen Mallet was a great option for durability and utility. Black Cleaver was an option to support your team and direct focus, while ading raw AD for mixed damage. Nashor's occasionally saw play when it would fit into a build without passing the 2.5 cap, with great AP and CDR. SotD was iffy, as was ionic spark later on. If an extra item was absolutely needed, rageblade or gunblade could fit the slot with AD to mix up the damage and AP to boost the champion's ratios. Blue potions and occasionally even deathcap could be used to maximize the champion's procs.

So, explain to me again how you hit a build wall at 3 items?


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Tejesh

Senior Member

01-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuan Shikai View Post
No. Like really, NO, that is what blade of the ruined king is for.

The item you just described is FAR better than Madred's Blood Razor (that has been removed for being a noobtrap) has ever been while still cheaper and there already is an item to serve it's purpose.
BotRK is a terrible item.
This item is better then bother BotRK and MBR. As in - it's actually useful in the no armor, high health meta we're in.


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Vuther

Senior Member

01-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kholdstare13 View Post
So, explain to me again how you hit a build wall at 3 items?
Because critting does more damage and doesn't put you in a weird pseudo-fighter-support build with a conglomerate of effects and stats that your champion cannot simply fully synergize with while still costing a ton of cash like getting normal AD.

And unfortunately, the likes of Kog'Maw as you mentioned needs to do a lot of damage because that is what your team needs you for.


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Kholdstare13

Senior Member

01-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vuther View Post
Because critting does more damage and doesn't put you in a weird pseudo-fighter-support build with a conglomerate of effects and stats that your champion cannot simply fully synergize with while still costing a ton of cash like getting normal AD.

And unfortunately, the likes of Kog'Maw as you mentioned needs to do a lot of damage because that is what your team needs you for.

You are a very confused person. Crit is important for the majority of ad carries, but there are 4 potential effective on-hit carries in the game, plus Varus who can lean towards AD for his poke or AP for his burst, and WW who just makes madred's feel awesome. Then there are the FUN builds like Lulu, Oriana, TF, MF, and the full-on troll builds like Cho, Fiora, Renekton, Shen, or Voli.

Sticking to the serious competitive on-hits, they have the benefit of mixed damage making it hard to defend against them, which is where the bloodrazor comes in to prevent even health from being an obvious defense. This provides a great choice in any defensive meta, and the item itself would be amazing in today's health-based games. On normal carries, pure AD crit is just as effective now thanks to the lack of armor.

But you seem to need it worded as simply as possible for you.

Crit makes AD strong.

On-hit is a different damage type than AD

Bloodrazor was the core item for on-hit carries.

My on-hit Kog out-damaged both crit and AP enemy Kogs all the time, while being able to survive a rogue bruiser or assassin breaking through our front lines while they got focused.

Your argument is the same as saying lich bane is worthless on Ez because IE has crit and does more damage. It's a different build entirely and you should not confuse the two.


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Vuther

Senior Member

01-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kholdstare13 View Post
You are a very confused person. Crit is important for the majority of ad carries, but there are 4 potential effective on-hit carries in the game, plus Varus who can lean towards AD for his poke or AP for his burst, and WW who just makes madred's feel awesome. Then there are the FUN builds like Lulu, Oriana, TF, MF, and the full-on troll builds like Cho, Fiora, Renekton, Shen, or Voli.

Sticking to the serious competitive on-hits, they have the benefit of mixed damage making it hard to defend against them, which is where the bloodrazor comes in to prevent even health from being an obvious defense. This provides a great choice in any defensive meta, and the item itself would be amazing in today's health-based games. On normal carries, pure AD crit is just as effective now thanks to the lack of armor.

But you seem to need it worded as simply as possible for you.

Crit makes AD strong.

On-hit is a different damage type than AD

Bloodrazor was the core item for on-hit carries.

My on-hit Kog out-damaged both crit and AP enemy Kogs all the time, while being able to survive a rogue bruiser or assassin breaking through our front lines while they got focused.

Your argument is the same as saying lich bane is worthless on Ez because IE has crit and does more damage. It's a different build entirely and you should not confuse the two.
Mixed damage gains no benefit from today's health-stacking as both sides of its damage are affected equally by health rather than being more difficult to counterbuild as it was before when resistances were more cost-efficient. Actually, it's even worse without considering Bloodrazor. That being said, Bloodrazor would still have pretty much same issues of being hard-countered by any magic resistance targets build without an easy penetration option to deal with it while AD builds still just get crit, life steal and armour penetration to ignore armour and health alike. The same thing happened while Atmogs was popular, and the same thing would happen now. Pure AD crit is effective as it's always been.

On-hit damage does less damage than AD and isn't worth it on anyone who has other options. Kog'Maw is one of those anyone's. You cannot out-damage or out-life steal Krit'Maw with an on-hit build while both have the ballpark figure of three items (two stands a better chance) and the fourth would made on-hit look like a helpless fish out of water.

No, I would be saying Lich Bane is worthless on Ezreal because AP Ezreal has no wave-clear outside of his ultimate or something like that except I don't really know or care about AP Ezreal so I wouldn't say that. I will still say on-hit damage is a bad build on an carry.


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Kholdstare13

Senior Member

01-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vuther View Post
Mixed damage gains no benefit from today's health-stacking as both sides of its damage are affected equally by health rather than being more difficult to counterbuild as it was before when resistances were more cost-efficient. Actually, it's even worse without considering Bloodrazor. That being said, Bloodrazor would still have pretty much same issues of being hard-countered by any magic resistance targets build without an easy penetration option to deal with it while AD builds still just get crit, life steal and armour penetration to ignore armour and health alike. The same thing happened while Atmogs was popular, and the same thing would happen now. Pure AD crit is effective as it's always been.

On-hit damage does less damage than AD and isn't worth it on anyone who has other options. Kog'Maw is one of those anyone's. You cannot out-damage or out-life steal Krit'Maw with an on-hit build while both have the ballpark figure of three items (two stands a better chance) and the fourth would made on-hit look like a helpless fish out of water.

No, I would be saying Lich Bane is worthless on Ezreal because AP Ezreal has no wave-clear outside of his ultimate or something like that except I don't really know or care about AP Ezreal so I wouldn't say that. I will still say on-hit damage is a bad build on an carry.

On-hit is only suffering because we lost bloodrazor. It would be perfect to counter the health stacking. Mixed damage does JUST as much as armor pen to avoid resistances, if not more since any on-hit build can be adjusted to fit the enemy team. Raw AD locks itself into a fixed build and makes the game incredibly boring. On-hit was MORE damaging than AD for champs like kog in seasons 1 and 2. The only reason AD is better now is because season 3 removed bloodrazor, nerfed attack speed, and buffed AD.

If they put BotRK's passive on any speed item, I would buy it. That passive doesn't rely on AD to proc, it relies on attack speed and should be bundled with it. It would be GREAT to get a form of lifesteal that works with on-hit, which is the only thing BotRK does well. Let's take BotRK, switch it to max health, and swap the cutlass for a stinger. AS/CDR over AD/lifesteal, suddenly it looks much better. You AD carries are better off with BT anyway, you won't miss BotRK. The sustain works much the same as the armor from bloodrazor.

What you end up with is

stinger (1250) + 975 = 2225
40% attack speed
10% cooldown reduction
4% drain passive

if that's too strong early game, throw in a pickaxe to the build, add 25 AD, 3100 total. on-hits never turn down free AD and you ADC might like it more.

The old magic damage passive would be better for on-hit champions with malady shred, but physical would be acceptable if it helps you ADC sleep better, and would be interesting to see in action, especially if they made an item that builds from haunting guise + brutalizer to go with it. If they left it physical but changed it to this item, would you finally be happy?

If you want an AD champion go play Cait. Leave Kog alone.


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Tejesh

Senior Member

01-25-2013

Is this better or worse?
-------------------------------------
Parasitic Bow and Arrow
-----------------------------
Sapphire Crystal (+200 mana) 400
Sapphire Crystal (+200 mana) 400
Recurve Bow (+30% AS) 950
Vamp Scepter (+10 AD, +10% LS) 800
Pickaxe (+25 AD) 875
-----------------------------
Stats:
+50 AD, +40% AS, +650 Mana
UNIQUE Passive: Your basic attacks reduce the target's Magic Resist by 10 for 5 seconds. Effects stack up to 8 times.
UNIQUE Passive: Your basic attacks deal an additional amount of damage equal to 4% of target's maximum health as magic damage and heal you for the same amount. Max 500 damage against monsters.
UNIQUE Active: Gain bonus attack damage equal to your base attack damage and 20% lifesteal for 5 seconds. 90 second cooldown.

3425 + 375 combine cost = 3800g


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