Are Champions As Awesome As They Could Be? @Morello @Feralpony @IronStylus @Xypherous

First Riot Post
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BestBilbo

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by phatcat09 View Post
I thought it implied, but yes.

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With regards to anyone who makes the: "But if we look at tournament play diversity" argument. *deep slow breathe*

This is my biggest pet peeve of the all with the game -- it is the unfair use of competitive play as a means for describing that the game has the ability for alternate gameplay.

The issue here is just that. It's competitive Pre-made 5 v 5 - a classic miscegenation of fruits example.

Those strategies are able to be made viable because they can be practiced by the team. The game is set-up to easily Support a Top, Mid, 2 Bot, and Jungle meta. It doesn't stop other types of gameplay, but the "barrier of entry" into trying them is exceedingly high because of the current implementations of design.

Only premades will be able to not only effectively find alternative strategies, but also practice the successful use of those strategies.

How can we expect this to ever occur in solo-queue when we passively discourage it through design.

We make one way so incredibly appealing because of its high ratio between simplicity and effectiveness that straying from it is difficult to justify and simultaneously more work for people to do. We actively try to limit the amount of information people need to have to play at the same time so why should we also have the expectation that eventually people will try them? The phrase Pendragon coined "burden of knowledge" from the infamous invoker thread comes to mind.

Sometimes I think people forget that Solo-queue and Pre-mades are entirely different environments, and as such are capable of entirely different things.

Pre-mades can find more complex and equitably powerful gameplay decisions because of it, but you can't expect everyone in solo-queue to have the knowledge of these plays, when the design leans towards Top, Mid, 2 Bot (no CS support), and Jungle meta - a safe maneuver that works incredibly well.

Consider why the Meta even came about in the first place.

1. We discovered 1 hero could fight off two heroes top if they were tanky and exceed in their farm allowing them to destroy top lane because of how snowballing works in this game.

2. Middle lane has always been solo and it's classically been that way because of the dangerousness of the river allowing for open ganks from both side (across all MOBA) so ranged characters were more beneficial here, in LoL specifically AP casters because of their ability to farm and stay out of harms way. AP are squishy so they didn't work well top 1 v 2.

3. Then we have characters specifically designed to be weak at the start but steam-roll later, and a character who passively offers support without the need for farm to be successful since disables of any kind are equitably useful without the need for AP/AD gain. So we paired these two together and told the support not to farm and to use GP/5, while protecting the temporarily weaker ADC a mutually positive relationship. This position used to be 1 range 1 melee now it's more specifically 1 ADC 1 Support (protector cc). Going to squishy bot was asking for a tanky enemy team to destroy and snow ball ahead, but an effective ADC and Support could hold off against this combo an eventual get ahead since the tanky bottom would mellow out mid game while the ADC farmed ahead.

4. For the longest people complained about jungling trying their best to keep the 2 top because it had a higher skill cap, but Riot saw it was good and made it more appealing by lowering the barrier of entry and making more junglers who could stay relevant and assist all lanes with additional man power for ganks when need be and so it became a stead fast role in the process thus solidifying the Meta.

And we now have 5 roles like a sport that everyone can learn easily without burdening themselves with knowing completely different tactics, and it was beautiful to watch it come into being.

And it works!

But it works to well for there to be any truly successful diversity.

Unless...Someone actively encourages it to be done, or forces the game in a direction that there can be a way to counter the Meta strategy without it being to difficult to learn.

However, if anyone who reads what any red says -- they're happy about where it is and are quite visibly supporting it even though they say the refuse to take a stance on it.

Does that make the game bad or wrong? No.

But it makes it stand opposite of what Riot says its intentions are.

They're saying they're for one thing, we're seeing another, and all we get is "well it's not up to us".

I beg to differ...

Those intentions should be changed to match what they're doing -- although that would be foolish because the playerbase wants that diversity.

And when you have a conflict like that it should scream that something fundamentally has to change or eventually people will become discontent and you'll have to deal with it later.

I've said it in the past -- the game will come to a boiling point where it will have to be either a Sport or a Game.

So now I return to my previously mentioned state of being: It's not my game it's theirs and they like where it's going, but in my opinion, from my vantage point as a consumer -- I'm seeing a conflict and to me it's only a matter of time before others who are less actively involved in caring about these things feel it as well -- I could be wrong, but y'know I think myself justified enough to at least warn against it. I'd hate to see things go south, and I'd love to see a return to diverse gameplay that's why I speak out not because I think I'm better, which many in the past have inferred from my writing....

I'd like a game where people could go whatever two characters they wanted that synergized with each other in whatever lane they wanted -- that isn't based on the current Meta - I want a flexible Meta, so that it can very and then we wouldn't have to see conflict over it.

I miss going



and it would work and work well and the game design allowed for it, but you had to know various way characters interacted with each other well to do it.

Good Luck with that decision making now...



One last thing.

Riot: Your primary motivation in this game was to cease passive gameplay. Why in the world are you supporting a 0 CS support bot model that literally is encouraging this. What's worse than denying? I'd venture to say not allowing 1 person to be able to kill anything is just as annoying to a broader public that doesn't take up to the sport aspect of it. I'm surprised you guys didn't decide to instead redesign the lane to make this not be a thing yet, but again you can't have such "radical" gameplay changes right
I've read this entirely - couldn't agree more. (Me copying the entire comment is intentional - it's a good post.)


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ItemsGuy

Senior Member

01-23-2013

"Riot: Your primary motivation in this game was to cease passive gameplay. Why in the world are you supporting a 0 CS support bot model that literally is encouraging this. What's worse than denying? I'd venture to say not allowing 1 person to be able to kill anything is just as annoying to a broader public that doesn't take up to the sport aspect of it. I'm surprised you guys didn't decide to instead redesign the lane to make this not be a thing yet, but again you can't have such "radical" gameplay changes right"

You misunderstand this--the 0 cs support model not only creates a role that can fully engage with their enemy (as opposed to focusing on on last-hitting, like the carry) at all times, but a beautiful meta-teamwork within teams! It's symbiosis at its best, and I think your issue may actually be with Riot's execution of "support" champions (especially the likes of Soraka, oh god).

Please, take another look at the support champions I've redesigned--as well as the Original Content supports I have designed!

If you find that any of these fall into or favor any sort of "passive" play, please let me know! :y

Also,

NOTE: (and this may be of interest to @Morello)

I am under no circumstances an advocate of passive play in LoL, because it's a competitive game--and competitive games are only as good as the extent to which engagement between players (allies and enemies alike) can be developed.

One of the arguments I see Morello throwing my way is that he values his ideal of "depth" over all because of "the kind of game LoL is"--but if this "depth" involves giving players homework (ie. lacking the intuitiveness that using a central theme as a vessel would create), then it takes away from that consciousness of the players around you. If you're focusing on which abstract order to cast three of your abilities above all, you aren't giving quite as much attention to your surroundings as you could be (by sheer force of %--there can only by 100%, and you only have 100% of your attention to give; when there's give, there's take). When these are incorporated into things that are seamless and intuitive, playing the game becomes more about the players, and less about the game--this is one of the primary flaws DotA/2/HoN suffer from.

I'll use Brand as an example, because I think he's one of the champions where you'd argue I sacrifice depth for thematic unity and kit coherency/consistency/readability (all working towards the same goal, in a way that's easily understood by players even at a glance--which is important with a fast-paced game that has over 100 champions, as a glance is all you can afford). "But ItemsGuy, where's the depth in Brand now that he only has to focus on "landing" one of his abilities, and doesn't have to consider the order in which he uses them to do different things?"

Why, Morello--it's in the strategic use of those abilities, not the mechanical execution of them! Instead of focusing on certain abstract combos or "just landing your abilities"--with set actions for set situations--you are acting and reacting based on the actions of your allies and enemies. Your goal as Brand is to create a situation in which you would be able to make full use of your kit to fulfill your role, instead of simply coordinating with your allies and "just landing your abilities," which is bare-bones (jeesh, I feel like I've said this a lot lately)!

The depth with Brand comes not with the complexity of his tools, but how he works with them. Your decision-making with Brand is beyond the surface-of-the-water "do your job by making sure all of your abilities happen" with the toe-in-the-pool of "also if you hit your abilities in different orders they do different things"--it's plunging in head-first, taking all of the defined strengths and weaknesses present within that particular match into account and playing according to that. Right now, just about any two Brand games you play would be the same--as with just about any champion. Particular strengths and weaknesses aren't really that defined, if present, and what you instead need to keep in mind are all 50+ abilities present within that match. You're not playing against "an Inventor," you're playing against a champion with a HP/5 aura, a turret, a wonky three-target nuke, an AoE nuke that blinds (and sometimes stuns????), and an ability that turns his turrets into ice for a few seconds. You're not playing against "a Sniper," you're playing against an occasional single-shot steroid, a line-nuke with a delay, a snare trap, a projectile slow, and one "Sniper" ability.

This whole "unified champion" spiel I keep spouting isn't just the over-fantasized rantings of some wide-eyed idealist--it's something that can make League of Legends as a video game and eSport better in just about every way possible, while allowing for even greater possibilities due to the newfound lack of overbearing burden knowledge and inconsistent standards.

For this reason, I'd appreciate it if you put the "it's just another point of view" argument out to pasture--at least until everything I've been trying to convey and push for in this thread is proven invalid! This is all I ask of you at the moment, and would be very grateful if you entertained this request. :y


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Autorevolver

Senior Member

01-23-2013

I agree to some extent but the thing that stood out most to me were the comments made about Mordekaiser and whether or not him being a mage as opposed to what you'd expect (getting bashed in with a mace) makes sense. I think this is a tricky thing to do because this is really a fantasy game, and making every single champ what you'd 'expect' would take a lot of the fun out of the game. I do think there are theme issues with some champs but the whole "champ uses mace, so he must be AD and have mace skills" mentality is a bit off for this fantasy game.


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Arechon Gend

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by ItemsGuy View Post
Oi oi oi, what? These are all designed for Summoner's Rift, yo!

And again--while this is one of the redesigns that could actually fit in LoL and make it better (Nasus hasn't seen tournament play for two years, and for good reason), most of my redesigns would be better suited for a sequel of sorts! This is the "LoL 2" you'll see thrown around by Peri and I quite a bit.

Also new maps =/= a better game! In fact, the more maps there are, the less structurally sound the game is. While I think cool stuff like the purely PvE "Void Invasion" last-as-long-as-you-can map could be a cool thing that could diversify the game and expand the playerbase (which is always good!), focus should be first and foremost on Summoner's Rift. Once SR is the best possible situation it could be (and the roster hits its cap), then cool new game modes can be created!

I've always found that the whole "give us Lava Chamber! give us new maps!" deal stemmed from a lack of interest in the game itself--namely, due to champions not being as "awesome" as they could be--the whole "if you've played one mage, you've played them all" effect that's been in place for quite some time now and doesn't seem to be changing.

The best way to fix this would be to make every champion their own thing! Taking the redesigns into consideration, Heimerdinger would play like Heimerdinger, Graves would play like Graves, Nocturne would play like Nocture--every champion would provide its own unique experience, and I feel that especially with how far I've pushed them in the directions only each individual champion can go, players wouldn't get bored with champions (or at least not as quickly) because the experience would be rich and juicy and they wouldn't ever feel like "it's like I've played this before"!
I disagree, at least to a point. I this game needs a new map or 2, even in the competitive side of things. Nothing too crazy, obviously 50 new maps would be way too much, and would end up with no focus what so ever, but this being a video game and not a board game, or a real sport, I don't think adding in a couple more serious competitive maps would hurt (I don't think anyone considers Twisted Treeline or Crystal Scar serious competitive maps). I don't think it would even be as necessary to ask if Riot actually did put out something like a minion survival map, or an ARAM matchmaking queue on a semi regular basis, to at least appease us casuals. I really do wish Riot wouldn't focus so much on esports, but there is too much money there for them not to, and I can't blame them for it. What they fail to realize is, no video game will ever come anywhere close to being an actual sport. Why, because to follow an esport is much more difficult, someone who has never seen a game of basketball can watch a single game and understand the basics, sure, you could say the same for a game of LoL, but beyond those basics, which are already more complex than basketball, everything else is a lot more complicated, ultimately making it much harder to follow. Pair that with the fact that the world of video games evolves far more quickly than the world of sports, a few years from now, its likely some other game will be the most watched esports game, and if that game happens to be in the same genre, it will hurt LoL even more. Ultimately, any esports game that does well will be nothing more than a flavor of the moment, some will last longer than others, but I don't think any esports game could be as popular as LoL currently is for more than 5 years (maybe less). Basically, you can't continue to grow a game on esports, your going to have to look at those playing your game rather than those watching other people play it, and how much FUN they are having in the process. Now I get it, fun is subjective, what is fun for one person wont be as fun for others. If Riot wants to make the game more fun for it's casual players, its going to need better variety, not in champions, but what players can do with those champions.

I don't feel like typing all of this out again, so
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arechon Gend View Post
What I'm worried about is that Morello, and Riot in general is afraid. We've seen Riot change their ways on a number of different things in the past, and every time its usually because of a negative reaction to something. I think this shows Riot is afraid of making mistakes. Morello already has a bad taste in his mouth on adding new maps because of his experience working on Guild Wars (though from what I've read in that thread, it isn't even completely accepted that the number of maps there was the problem). Then take into consideration the reaction this community has had to Twisted Treeline, Dominion, and the remake of Twisted Treeline. I think they are afraid to make a new map at this point. The way I see it, there are only 2 approaches left that they haven't tried.

1) Make a new map that actually plays similarly to Summoner's Rift. The concern here is apparently dividing of the player base. This game has more than enough players for just 1 or 2 new maps to make that not be a problem. Also, 9 times out of ten it seems, those who complain about, or just don't like Twisted Treeline or the Crystal Scar that do want to see a new map just want to see a new standard 5vs5 map that wont require a whole lot of extra effort to balance around.

2) The other approach being to just put something out there that isn't supposed to be competitive. Twisted Treeline and Crystal Scar aren't really played as seriously (I can't say I really understand why, but they just aren't). For whatever reason, a new 5vs5 classic mode map seems to be the only new map concept that would be taken seriously as competitive, so if they don't want to do that, make something that isn't competitive. Something like what I suggest here http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=2972404 or as others have suggested, a minion survival type map.


For some reason, Riot doesn't seem to want to go to either of those extremes, but each attempt at going somewhere in between simply hasn't worked as well as they would have liked, and at this point, I think they are just scared of making new maps all together. This is why we need more people to come out and say they want to see new maps. If enough people say it, then maybe they will listen.

And for the record, I have nothing against them adding in more PvP modes like they did with Dominion, I personally really enjoy it, I was simply pointing out the general reaction to it.
Also, this whole argument is one I've been trying to make for a while.
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=2957032

I'm sorry, but I feel like if Riot is doing one thing that is actually right, its champion design.


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BestBilbo

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arechon Gend View Post
I disagree, at least to a point.
He's saying there is always room for new maps if SR and the all the champions are as awesome and good as they can be, we like to think you wouldn't be posting this at all in terms of 'boredom' if our Redesigns would be reality.

Quote:
I'm sorry, but I feel like if Riot is doing one thing that is actually right, its champion design.
Then it makes sense you are asking for new maps if you don't acknowledge champions are the main problem, the main deal.

'I'm not going to paint my car if the engine ain't working' - would be similar to adding maps where the main problem is not maps at all.


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phatcat09

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hot Revolvers View Post
I think this is a tricky thing to do because this is really a fantasy game, and making every single champ what you'd 'expect' would take a lot of the fun out of the game.
I think this is a good anecdote for describing what I mean by

Sport Vs Game


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phatcat09

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by ItemsGuy View Post
You misunderstand this--the 0 cs support model not only creates a role that can fully engage with their enemy (as opposed to focusing on on last-hitting, like the carry) at all times, but a beautiful meta-teamwork within teams! It's symbiosis at its best, and I think your issue may actually be with Riot's execution of "support" champions (especially the likes of Soraka, oh god).
Probably. I look at yours if you look at my only one.

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=2971878

I haven't decided on ratios for him yet, but Jax pops into mind constantly.


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ItemsGuy

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by phatcat09 View Post
I think this is a good anecdote for describing what I mean by

Sport Vs Game
Not entirely--it's not that LoL needs to rely on theming for its readability because it's competitive, it needs to rely on theming for readability because it's a fast-paced competitive game with over 100 characters. If LoL only had, say, 20 champions, then keeping kits unified while not using recognizable themes ("Fire," "Bull," Cannoneer," etc.) is perfectly fine--Bloodline Champions is a perfect example of this.

However, when you start getting big with the roster, you need everything to be readable at a glance--like I said before, in a game like LoL, a glance is often only as much as you can afford.

Also, @Arch--I'm afraid if you keep on trying to bring the conversation of the thread off-topic by self-advertising, we're going to have to put you aside. Please be respectful, and don't just try to use this thread as a vessel to forward your own agenda!


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BestBilbo

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by phatcat09 View Post
I think this is a good anecdote for describing what I mean by

Sport Vs Game
It's funny as every character that actually does this is considered to be one of the best characters in League, Morello mentioning Vayne, Draven, Vi.


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Arechon Gend

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
He's saying there is always room for new maps if SR and the all the champions are as awesome and good as they can be, we like to think you wouldn't be posting this at all in terms of 'boredom' if our Redesigns would be reality.



Then it makes sense you are asking for new maps if you don't acknowledge champions are the main problem, the main deal.

'I'm not going to paint my car if the engine ain't working' - would be similar to adding maps where the main is not maps at all.
There is a problem with champions, at least the way I see it, just not quite with how they work mechanically, I would like to know more about them, who they are, why they fight, some of the major events in their histories, and how they react in other scenarios than just fighting on Summoner's Rift. Riot doesn't seem to have much faith in text based lore, and that is understandable, its not the most accessible. I think the only way to put that out there in a way that players will care about would be a in a way that actually appears in game, and that is maps. Like I've said before, they don't have to be competitive.