Are Champions As Awesome As They Could Be? @Morello @Feralpony @IronStylus @Xypherous

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Steelflame

Senior Member

01-22-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Because the medium we're using to deliver characters is a core, PC, PvP game, the important driving force becomes mechanics. Other media (and indeed many games!) need not prioritize mechanics as heavily - the reason we made the decisions to make Brand less fiery was mechanical, and I'd make that decision again today (though I think the W could benefit from the burning area if it wasn't strictly unsatisfying or better than other persistent AOE's).
On the topic of Brand... could his W just leave a burn field that applies his passive? Would make an interesting aspect to it. His W ravages the land so greatly that it burns after the fact, setting any who cross it alight.


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Ding an Sich

Senior Member

01-22-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steelflame View Post
On the topic of Brand... could his W just leave a burn field that applies his passive? Would make an interesting aspect to it. His W ravages the land so greatly that it burns after the fact, setting any who cross it alight.
This in concept sounds fun, but thinking about it raises alot imo.

Would that be giving too much power to brand? Alot of the circular aoe's that do damage either are short, do alot of damage but doesn't hit/proc crazily, does little damage. Now while it wouldn't be doing that much damage in of itself, because of how tightly nit the rest of his kit... Would this remove alot of the skill element from him? Like there are plenty of situations where you wouldn't even need to worry about hitting W, as long as the opponent is forced to get hit by the passive, which then almost makes them vulnerable to every other ability.

Even more so brand isn't in a horrible place, and I could only imagine if this is even considered you'd have to nerf him else where since this make the risk/reward paradigm for his abilities more reward and little risk.


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iProbie

Senior Member

01-22-2013

problem with this is that simple:

people can't be bothered to learn and wants everything simple and easy thus the phrase "burden of knowledge"


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Wrosgar

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Senior Member

01-22-2013

Also for those wanting to know more about "Depth vs. Complexity" that Morello touches on, here's a link to our favourite game design instructors, Extra Credits!
http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/epi...vs.-complexity


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Cha0sniper

Senior Member

01-22-2013

iProbie, it's not reasonable to expect a new player to go out and study the skillsets of over 100 champions before stepping into a game. That's why "burden of knowledge" is a bad thing, it's all about making the game accessible. For a multiplayer game, the constant influx of new blood is of utmost importance, therefore you don't want to scare them off.


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coolmans

Senior Member

01-22-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
Glad this thread got some traction =D

And look! A sticky!
leona


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Sexy Nick FTW

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Pretty cool post, it's nice to see things like this with flavour and which are new and innovative in the GD, good work. Although I believe that it would just be easier for a few champions to change their theme than their whole kit ( I'm just talking about the ones with a completely horrible kit which doesn't make much sense, rather than changing the whole kit - except for Sion - change the theme instead)


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Steelrambo

Senior Member

01-23-2013

I agree with about 55% of things said in OP with regards to specific champs, but the thought process is excellent-- this kind of thought on a large scale would get plenty done with LoL in-game. I imagine this is what game designers go through, but from the perspective of a game player, this is extraordinary synthetic thought.


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The Klaren

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
You make some definitely good points thematically - I agree on the Brand W thing. I think, though, it does come down to a priority difference. Not just to me as a designer, but to Riot Games as a company.

Because the medium we're using to deliver characters is a core, PC, PvP game, the important driving force becomes mechanics. Other media (and indeed many games!) need not prioritize mechanics as heavily - the reason we made the decisions to make Brand less fiery was mechanical, and I'd make that decision again today (though I think the W could benefit from the burning area if it wasn't strictly unsatisfying or better than other persistent AOE's).

When I compare this to class design on GW2, the entire focus was different - and I think that work was (and, should be) more focused on theme and feel. It also results in other priority differences there, such as VFX cleanliness, mechanical fidelity, and storytelling. I think all these things are always values that you need to look at, but something has to be "more important." If everything's important, then nothing's important.

I think some examples you give are clear wins - Yorick, who lacks both thematically and mechanically, is representative of the biggest win potentials here.

I generally agree with what you're saying, I just prioritize these things differently because of the type of game League of Legends is overall. I don't think we ever want to sacrifice mechanical strength (including play pattern analysis, decision trees, etc) for thematic wins, but instead, see how we can do more of both correctly, like Draven or Vi do.

EDIT: This is a cool discussion I rarely get to have on forums
Thanks heaps for these types of responses Morello. It gives me a great insight into what I can expect from Riot over the next year in regards to new champions and how you address player needs/wants. More game devs need to communicate with the players like this, it's great when we can understand WHY you guys make the decisions you do. It gives us peace of mind.


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Daemon

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ding an Sich View Post
This in concept sounds fun, but thinking about it raises alot imo.

Would that be giving too much power to brand? Alot of the circular aoe's that do damage either are short, do alot of damage but doesn't hit/proc crazily, does little damage. Now while it wouldn't be doing that much damage in of itself, because of how tightly nit the rest of his kit... Would this remove alot of the skill element from him? Like there are plenty of situations where you wouldn't even need to worry about hitting W, as long as the opponent is forced to get hit by the passive, which then almost makes them vulnerable to every other ability.

Even more so brand isn't in a horrible place, and I could only imagine if this is even considered you'd have to nerf him else where since this make the risk/reward paradigm for his abilities more reward and little risk.

It's basically Morgana's Tormented Soil. It procs her passive spell vamp, this would proc his passive.

However, any enemy who touches it is instantly in danger of being hit with a Q, stunned and well, it's OP. His Pillar of Fire takes some skill to land.