Self-healing reduced, but not shields?

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FDru

Senior Member

01-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyx87 View Post
Have you ever played vs Nunu bot? That is why the reduction is there. Also, to keep lifesteal in check.
Because the heal reduction makes Nunu killable? lol

And lifesteal needs to be kept in check because of the AD carry dominance on this map? lol

The heal reduction is bogus and was obviously put in place based on a very flawed way of playing ie: perma-laning at top. Actual problematic sustain came from champs like Sona and Nid who can heal others like mad... good thing they are no longer penalized while champs like WW, Volibear, Fiddle and Vlad are left gimped.

Also, shield are OP, and always have been. Disgustingly efficient damage absorb that totally ignores grievous wounds? Yeah, definitely not too good. I shake my head everytime Riot releases another champ with this lame mechanic.


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NAForumSmurf

Senior Member

01-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpeeDeh View Post
PS: I thought it was obvious but a shield isn't going to take you from 50 HP to 2500 HP. Heals will get you there.
It might not get me from 50 to 2500, but it'll prevent me from getting there in the first place OR it'll prevent me from getting from 50 to 0.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyx87
Have you ever played vs Nunu bot? That is why the reduction is there. Also, to keep lifesteal in check.
As i said before, I am all for keeping the reduction on life steal and spell vamp. My problem is the fact that champs with self-heal abilities are unfairly nerfed. Yeah Nunu can be a problem, but he is counterable (plus at early levels his consume has quite a long cooldown, unlike most shields).


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Nyx87

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Senior Member

01-22-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by FDru View Post
Because the heal reduction makes Nunu killable? lol

And lifesteal needs to be kept in check because of the AD carry dominance on this map? lol

The heal reduction is bogus and was obviously put in place based on a very flawed way of playing ie: perma-laning at top. Actual problematic sustain came from champs like Sona and Nid who can heal others like mad... good thing they are no longer penalized while champs like WW, Volibear, Fiddle and Vlad are left gimped.

Also, shield are OP, and always have been. Disgustingly efficient damage absorb that totally ignores grievous wounds? Yeah, definitely not too good. I shake my head everytime Riot releases another champ with this lame mechanic.
I love that I said Nunu was killable because of the aura and that AD carries were dominant on Dominion. Oh wait, I didn't. Nunu and lifesteal stacking is slightly less abusive than it could be and that the Heal Reduction helps keep those in check, that's all I'm saying. Also, you can't really sit there and tell me that Warwick wasn't an issue before they gutted his Q due to his dominance in SR's top/mid lane.

Anyway, the OP wants to keep the healing reduction on Lifesteal and Spellvamp but have it not apply to self healing like Mundo's Passive and Ult be affected.

Quote:
As i said before, I am all for keeping the reduction on life steal and spell vamp. My problem is the fact that champs with self-heal abilities are unfairly nerfed.
I don't even like that the healing reduction no longer applies when you heal allies.

For me, I believe the issue is play/counterplay like others have stated. Healing is effective at all times as it permanently increases your HP, while Shields must be utilized or timed to absorb damage optimally. Soraka heals someone, walks away and it sticks forever. Janna shields someone, walks away and it lasts 5 secs.

In Diana's case, whom you brought up, she actually gets a subpar shield unless it is completely absorbed, refreshed and then absorbed again. Lots of room for counter play there.


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NAForumSmurf

Senior Member

01-22-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyx87 View Post
I don't even like that the healing reduction no longer applies when you heal allies.

For me, I believe the issue is play/counterplay like others have stated. Healing is effective at all times as it permanently increases your HP, while Shields must be utilized or timed to absorb damage optimally. Soraka heals someone, walks away and it sticks forever. Janna shields someone, walks away and it lasts 5 secs.

In Diana's case, whom you brought up, she actually gets a subpar shield unless it is completely absorbed, refreshed and then absorbed again. Lots of room for counter play there.
Before responding to your counterplay argument, some points about healing and shields:
- Since the champions' abilities are balanced for SR one can generally say that shields and heals are balanced in respect to each other. Introducing a healing debuff badly skews balance in favor of shields. I don't see any mechanical difference between Dom and SR that actually necessitates the healing debuff.
- Grevious Wounds: The entire heal-counter mechanic is available unchanged in Dom (both the items and ignite). In fact some argue that this mechanic makes shields better than heals even in SR (that is, without any healing debuff).

Now on to your counterplay argument. Two points:
- Counterplaying shields generally means baiting them. That is, making the player use it, wait it out and then attack while it is on cooldown (yes, in some rare cases, such as Diana, there are additional possibilities, but I'll cover that with an example in my next point). Baiting also makes the player waste mana. Let's take the vanilla case of Janna's shield. It has a 5 sec duration and 10 sec cooldown. That leaves a 5 sec window for plays if it is baited, which is plenty (not to mention the wasted mana). However, the major difference between Dom and SR is that mana is a non-issue in Dom. This has 2 consequences in relation to the shield baiting counterplay. First - and most straight forward - is the fact that Janna won't mind wasting mana on a shield. And second, near infinite mana means you can (and should) prioritize stacking cdr. Discounting any cdr runes, Janna can easily have 29% cdr by the first or second back: with the cdr mastery, cdr boots and a fiendish codex. This means the 5 sec window for plays after shield baiting just got reduced to 2 secs. By the time she finishes her BFT (which is the first completed item after boots on pretty much every ap champ) the window for plays is ONE measly second, ie nonexistent.
- Counterplaying heals: You and the other posters seem to be under the impression that only shields can be counterplayed. This is just not correct. Almost all self-heals need to fulfill certain conditions to work. In the majority of cases this means attacking an enemy champ or minions (just a few examples: Tryn, Cho, Vlad, Warwick, Xin, Fiora, Swain, Skarner, Nunu, Fiddle, Irelia, Khazix,...). The fact that conditions need to be met means there is a possibility for counterplay.
In fact, let us look at Diana's shield counterplay you mentioned. Ironically the counterplay against it's refresh is almost exactly the same as the counterplay against the other example you cited - Nunu's Consume. That is, fight them away from creep waves, since the easiest way to refresh Diana's shield is to stand in the middle of creeps (of course she can also opt to just stick to you by pulling and jumping you... but that is a different issue...).
Even the most vanilla heals like Soraka's, Alistar's and Taric's have these counterplay options. By forcing Soraka to heal out of combat she wastes the armor buff on her heal. Both Taric and Ali have long cooldowns and need to melee or be close to dying creeps respectively, to reduce them.

Finally, I would like to mention an additional point about healing abilities in Dominion that hasn't been raised at all yet.
The fact that there are Health Relics in Dom actually makes healing abilities less useful than shields even without the healing reduction, since healing is readily available to all, while shields obviously aren't. That is to say, a healing ability doesn't confer a unique advantage, unlike a shield.


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Phourc

Senior Member

01-22-2013

You seem hellaciously convinced that shielding is too strong, and I can't really speak to that. I have zero experience that confirms this, but I will admit Diana's kit (the one you seem to be specifically focusing on) is rather annoying to fight.

However, as to:

Quote:
Originally Posted by NAForumSmurf View Post
- Since the champions' abilities are balanced for SR one can generally say that shields and heals are balanced in respect to each other. Introducing a healing debuff badly skews balance in favor of shields. I don't see any mechanical difference between Dom and SR that actually necessitates the healing debuff.
- Grevious Wounds: The entire heal-counter mechanic is available unchanged in Dom (both the items and ignite). In fact some argue that this mechanic makes shields better than heals even in SR (that is, without any healing debuff).
1) I completely agree the healing nerf is strange (and Nome did just revert most of it). A lot of us are cautious of removing the last bits just because situations like bottom lane Nunu or an ulting Sion/Mundo are stupidly powerful in a skirmish (yes, smart players know to kite Sion, doesn't mean anyone at my elo does - and they frequently get rocked xP).

2) The Grevious Wound items now both Suck with a capital 'S'. The stats suck, the morellonomicon ONLY applies the debuff if they're basically almost dead already, it's really hard to justify them even against high healers because you're putting yourself behind stat-wise.


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ZallKlos

Senior Member

01-22-2013

There is no counter play to self healing.

Take Nunu bot, if he doesn't have -% healing debuff and won't overheal, there is no cost to nom a minion. There is not much bad timing since the health gain is permanent.

And Diana has lot of counter play.


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NAForumSmurf

Senior Member

01-22-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phourc View Post
1) I completely agree the healing nerf is strange (and Nome did just revert most of it). A lot of us are cautious of removing the last bits just because situations like bottom lane Nunu or an ulting Sion/Mundo are stupidly powerful in a skirmish (yes, smart players know to kite Sion, doesn't mean anyone at my elo does - and they frequently get rocked xP).

2) The Grevious Wound items now both Suck with a capital 'S'. The stats suck, the morellonomicon ONLY applies the debuff if they're basically almost dead already, it's really hard to justify them even against high healers because you're putting yourself behind stat-wise.
1) I don't think you can call removing the debuff from ally heals "reverting most of it". The vast majority of heal abilities are self-heals. But the questions remain: Why introduce the reduction in the first place? Why revert it for ally heals and not self-heals.

2) I have to partially disagree. While Morellonomicon is pretty strange and borderline useless, Executioner's Calling is a pretty good bot lane item in Dom when facing a strong self-healer (it makes Nunu players literally cry). The stigma on Executioner's Calling comes from SR where the item is not very good because laning phase only lasts a short while.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ZallKlos View Post
There is no counter play to self healing.

Take Nunu bot, if he doesn't have -% healing debuff and won't overheal, there is no cost to nom a minion. There is not much bad timing since the health gain is permanent.

And Diana has lot of counter play.
.... Suffice to say that if "there is no cost to nom a minion", then - by the same logic - there is no counter play to refreshing Diana's shield.


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Phourc

Senior Member

01-22-2013

ಠ_ಠ

Okay, consider Nidalee and Janna. Both are at 1/4 health, both are moving to another point. In the time it takes to travel, Nidalee gets to cast her heal on herself twice while Janna could shield herself, but it wouldn't help her as she's not currently taking damage.

Now Janna is at 1/4 healt hand Nidalee is at 3/4 health. Yes, Janna will get to prevent the first 200 + whatever damage she's going to take in the next fight, but Nidalee will also probably get another heal off - for around the same amount.

Significantly stronger: self-heals.

/feedtroll


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NAForumSmurf

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phourc View Post
ಠ_ಠ

Okay, consider Nidalee and Janna. Both are at 1/4 health, both are moving to another point. In the time it takes to travel, Nidalee gets to cast her heal on herself twice while Janna could shield herself, but it wouldn't help her as she's not currently taking damage.

Now Janna is at 1/4 healt hand Nidalee is at 3/4 health. Yes, Janna will get to prevent the first 200 + whatever damage she's going to take in the next fight, but Nidalee will also probably get another heal off - for around the same amount.

Significantly stronger: self-heals.

The obvious flaw in your argument is that you just randomly assume that they both start at 1/4 health. If one postulates equal player skill and a balanced match up (ie Janna and Nida don't counter each other), a prior engagement between both of them would result in Janna being at higher health than Nida once they disengage, because she can use her shield more often in combat. She can start out with it on and then use it again, while Nida has to wait till she gets damaged.

Also this completely ignores my Health Relic argument. Janna will ALWAYS have the advantage over Nida because she can use Health Relics to get back to full health and still have her shield ON TOP. As well as the fact that Ignite/Grevious Wounds is also available to Janna and gives her an additional advantage over Nida's heal.

Quite frankly I find it mind-boggling that people are actually defending this healing reduction with the simple argument that "healing is just stronger", while there seems to be no problem with it on SR. Not to mention the readily available Healing Relics all over the map in Dom, health pots AND the Grievous Wounds mechanic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phourc View Post
/feedtroll
Real? So I get flak for starting my answer to an argument with "sorry, no", but you are calling a legitimate argument trolling?


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Nyx87

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Calm it down folks.

Quote:
The obvious flaw in your argument is that you just randomly assume that they both start at 1/4 health. If one postulates equal player skill and a balanced match up (ie Janna and Nida don't counter each other), a prior engagement between both of them would result in Janna being at higher health than Nida once they disengage, because she can use her shield more often in combat. She can start out with it on and then use it again, while Nida has to wait till she gets damaged.
There are a few things wrong with this. First, you assume that abilities are only used while in combat. Second, you don't take into account that since neither champ dies, when they disengage Damage on Janna sticks(assuming she doesnt ult), while Nidalee can heal it all back. Janna can shield herself all she wants outside of combat, but those Hit Points aren't coming back. And that's the point. Heals have a broader use-case than shields.

Incorporating health relics into this argument is a little odd, as we are talking about a champion's ability to heal/shield themselves through abilities.

Quote:
Quite frankly I find it mind-boggling that people are actually defending this healing reduction with the simple argument that "healing is just stronger", while there seems to be no problem with it on SR.
Sustain has been nerfed repeatedly in SR because of how problematic it is. See: Soraka W/R nerfs, Sona W nerfs, Nidalee E nerfs, Warwick Q nerfs, Udyr W nerfs, Mundo R nerfs, Chogath Passive Nerfs, Akali Passive Nerfs, Taric Q nerfs, Irelia W nerfs, Fiddle W nerfs, Vlad nerfs, Morgana Passive Nerfs, Rengar Empowered W nerfs, Swain R nerfs, Tryndamere's Q nerfs, Riven's passive HP regen nerfs, Crystaline Flask nerfs, Catalyst Nerfs, HP pot nerfs, Revolver+upgrade nerfs,and Vampiric Scepter nerfs. To say that SR is fine when it comes to this situation is kinda silly given its track record.


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