All those threads talking about role-queuing.

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KlunkTheSpaceCat

Member

01-15-2013

Wow! Very excited to see action in this thread, and even on the first page of the forum! Woot!

I want to recap what I see as an optimal RBQ solution. It's just what I've come up with so far given the conversations here and on /r/leagueoflegends.

Quote:
When you queue for ranked or normal solo/duo, you select one to five of the five lanes that you are interested in playing. The game finds two groups of 5 people, each team with at least one player for each role. Champ select happens just like it happens now, maybe with little icons under each friendly summoner name indicating which roles that person queued for. Everything else happens the same way draft does now.
As it is, I have a hard time encouraging my gamer friends to pick up LoL. New players face a large increase in difficulty when they hit level 30. I think it is safe to say that most players are comfortable with one or maybe two roles when they are first able to queue for normal and ranked draft. Allowing these players to work on a role for which they have a few champions and a little experience is a much more fun way to play the game. As it is, these players may be forced to play whatever free champ is available for the role they are being forced to play; the other option is for them or someone else to dodge. Isn't it a bad thing that quitting the game client and being forced to wait 5 to 30 or more minutes has become a core mechanic of how games are formed? Riot even removed the Elo penalty for dodging ranked games; with the current system, choosing to not play LoL is a part of playing LoL. I think that sucks.

I believe that much of the conflict that happens between players is rooted in disagreement over roles. "Respect call order" and "respect pick order" threads are far more numerous than even the the plentiful "role based queue" threads that Pogo^4 has been so kind as to monitor. This game has a reputation for having a toxic player base, and I don't think it's because it attracts negative people. I think it's because the system is designed in such a way, intentionally or not, such that teammates are very likely to disagree with each other starting at the very beginning of their 20-60 minute online interaction. This is a recipe for not-awesome.


Objections and clarifications (sorry for being lazy and paraphrasing instead of quoting people):

It is not useful to classify Olaf/Jayce/Cho'gath/Soraka/etc as only one role, and no one should be limited in the champs from which they can choose.
I don't think RBQ should restrict anyone's choice in champions. It shouldn't stop anyone from swapping champs during champ select. It doesn't change who gets to be first pick. It doesn't change pick order. It just guarantees that there is at least one summoner on each team interested in playing each role/lane.

This will let players who know only one role get Elo higher than they deserve.
I maintain that it will not. I understand the thought behind this - "If I could only play the champ I want, then I would win more!" but we have to remember that all 9 other players in a game are in the same situation. The games you lose because you or someone on your team had to play another role are balanced by the games you win because someone on the other team had to do the same thing. Counter picking is a fantastic tool to win games, and people who play only one role can't counter-pick. Also, knowing your enemy because you know how to play that champ/role is am advantage; again - people who play only one role will not have this edge.

Queue times will go up for everyone but support.
This is probably true, particularly when RBQ is first implemented. However, RBQ should reduce dodges dramatically. And if the way to make the game better is to encourage people to learn other roles, then maybe giving people incentive to learn support is not such a bad thing. When WoW implemented a similar system for it's dungeon finder, tanks and healers were in short supply. Over time more people decided to tank and heal, because they wanted to get those short queue times. I think we might see the same effect in LoL. Even if the times do go up quite a bit, I argue that it's better to wait for a game where people aren't arguing over lanes.

Trolls will just queue support then go top.
Trolls will troll. They can choose to go to lanes that hurt your team's chances of winning now just as well as they can in RBQ. Tribunal is good for this, and has proven to be effective. The honor system, as well.

Riot does not want to enforce the meta
It's Riot's game and we have to trust their judgement on what is going to make the game as fun for as many people as possible, because they think about this stuff a lot more than we do! However, I haven't seen a Red post about this.

Riot should not enforce the meta.
A premade group of 5 is the right place to try out new stuff. In solo queue draft, players have a short period of time to communicate a game plan, and having the meta there is a very good shorthand to know what your team will do to try and achieve victory.

Riot doesn't need to do this.
DOTA2 is coming out. Riot didn't need to perform a S3 revamp of items, nor did it need to change the way ranked ladders work. But they did, because they want to make the game more fun. Forcing people to play roles that they don't wan to play isn't fun. In fact, it's so un-fun that it chronically spreads the un-fun to your teammates!

Why make a change just so lazy players don't have to learn more roles?
The change isn't intended to make the game easier for less-skilled players. The competition will still be the same group of people. It's to prevent the conflict that arises when two teammates need to play the same role.

And finally:
Pogo is a jerk and hurt my feelings in my feely places.
Pogo^4 has done a great job of curating this issue on the forums, and deserves props for that. He doesn't agree with everyone in the thread, myself included, but that's allowed. We're on the internet here, folks; try to give people the benefit of the doubt. Honestly if Pogo really wanted to troll and anger people on the internet he could just log into LoL. =]


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PogoPogoPogoPogo

Senior Member

01-15-2013

I insist that I henceforth be referred to as either:

Pogo

or...

Pogo IV, son of King Pogo III



and not Pogo^4.


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iWREQ

Senior Member

01-15-2013

*yawn* good luck


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OriginalJack

Senior Member

01-16-2013

Sooo I still don't like the idea of RBQ but just to toss an idea out there...
Has anybody ever suggested maybe having to select two roles when you do RBQ? It seems like having to select two roles would fix several of those problems like:

This will let players who know only one role get Elo higher than they deserve.
Queue times will go up for everyone but support.
Why make a change just so lazy players don't have to learn more roles?


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KnightxSScarlett

Senior Member

01-16-2013

Riot changed the items because they wanted to change the gameplay to make the game more exciting, particularly in tournament itemization. Role Queue will do neither. There is no reason for Riot to add Role Queue when the system in place works fine.


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PogoPogoPogoPogo

Senior Member

01-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by OriginalJack View Post
Sooo I still don't like the idea of RBQ but just to toss an idea out there...
Has anybody ever suggested maybe having to select two roles when you do RBQ? It seems like having to select two roles would fix several of those problems like:

This will let players who know only one role get Elo higher than they deserve.
Queue times will go up for everyone but support.
Why make a change just so lazy players don't have to learn more roles?
Yes, it has been suggested.

It doesn't address the issue of extended queue times. It actually makes this problem significantly worse by splitting the player base into two queues. There would be half as many players in each queue.


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KlunkTheSpaceCat

Member

01-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by PogoPogoPogoPogo View Post
Yes, it has been suggested.

It doesn't address the issue of extended queue times. It actually makes this problem significantly worse by splitting the player base into two queues. There would be half as many players in each queue.
You're talking about requiring players to select at least two roles when queuing in RBQ? That would be interesting. Maybe have this requirement for Ranked, but not for Normal?

Pogo^(2+2), he's talking about which roles a player queues for, not having one RBQ and one normal. I don't think anyone is interested in having one RBQ and one old-school queue, no one would ever queue for the old school queue, given the option.


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KlunkTheSpaceCat

Member

01-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mageinta Warrior View Post
Riot changed the items because they wanted to change the gameplay to make the game more exciting, particularly in tournament itemization. Role Queue will do neither. There is no reason for Riot to add Role Queue when the system in place works fine.
They changed gold generation to allow 0cs supports to purchase more items. They introduced a new item to allow 0cs supports to buy wards more cost efficiently. They're pretty comfortable with the 0cs support meta.


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KlunkTheSpaceCat

Member

01-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mageinta Warrior View Post
Riot changed the items because they wanted to change the gameplay to make the game more exciting, particularly in tournament itemization. Role Queue will do neither. There is no reason for Riot to add Role Queue when the system in place works fine.
Except it doesn't work fine. New players have a very difficult time finding games where they can practice roles that they want to practice. People constantly dodge games in champ select. Exiting the game client has become a part of the game, and Riot has even taken different steps to balance it, it's such a popular mechanic. LoL is a great game, and I love it; but it has its flaws.


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GunflameSmurf

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Senior Member

01-17-2013

What happens if I want to play Pantheon+Zyrar bot? Or leona+Pantheon? Or Fiddle+Zyra?

What happens if I want to queue duo top?

What happens if I want to play Caitlyn mid?