Eve Change Clearly Violates Game Design Anti-Patterns

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Tristyric

Member

01-16-2013

Well i've gotten a chance now to try out Evelynn post nerf and I'm somewhat sad to report the huge difference in AP play.

Hate spike:

The damage reduction was hardly noticeable here. I run much more AP then standard (26 from runes 34 total starting) and it was basically the same. On lane this leave the choice of farming or harassing but not both.

Ravage:

Again since I'm running more AP then usual the damage modification were barely noticeable in my opinion. The mana cost however limited my use of ravage by a large degree. Getting a ravage+hate spike poke was already risky, that much hasn't changed at all. The risk is in the effects on sustainability in lane. Every point of mana spent in harassing reduces your your farming ability. Eve's stealth regeneration does help to mitigate this somewhat but unless you're exceptional at spacing and last hitting you'll lose farm while waiting for your mana to restore to an effective level.

The Ult:

The most major issue I find here is that her ult no longer provides any intimidation for the enemy team. if you engage in a team fight with your ult down and it happens to come off cool-down towards the middle/end of the fight there is effectively no point in using it at all. The damage and CC is so minor that your enemies will plainly just ignore it. Respectively its like adding another cool-down on top of her already extended cool-down. Its true cool-down is now "150/120/90seconds + prerequisite:enemies above X HP". This is far to situational to be an offensive ultimate.

It also works less effectively as an escape tool as well now with the range reduced, making its utility severely reduced. Its also one less button to press in a team fight, leaving only your hate spikes minimal damage and your ravage which will likely not be off cool-down soon enough after use to be of any good. The overall effect is that Eve's team-fight value has diminished greatly.

Her Ult overall now lacks any versatility or Utility and only serves a very limited niche role in combat.

The burst combo:

Concerning the ULT+DFG+Ravage, it still technically works but I'm finding that popping my only true CC at the start of the fight is like an early warning bell. The ult hits, the DFG hits, and by the time I'm in for the snipe the CC effect is already gone and I'm weeding my way through a bunch of bodies all beating my face in so i can get a melee range hit onto a target. More unfortunately if I'm not starting the fight, this combo is even less effective. Popping my Dark frenzy can help me reach a target in this situation but then all Eve's escape utility is completely gone along with my shield. Evelynn is not a tank that can survive this scenario even long enough to at as a damage sponge for her team.

Summary:
At the moment AP MID Eveylnn seems to have become a hand grenade, throw her into the fight and she can potentially decimate an enemy but she's only meant for one use(not meant to come out alive). She might find use in a similar manner as a top lane Elise but I have my doubts.

I'm going to keep playing around with builds, as I'm the stubborn sort that believes there is a method for every champion to be viable.


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Zaurok

Senior Member

01-16-2013

They over nerfed her.

They said they didn't want Eve to snipe peole with her ult so they reduce the cast range. That alone is enough to stop her from sniping people off. They change her ult from % total to % current WITHOUT giving us a minimum base damage so that we can actually deal damage with it. How about 25% of current HP or 12.5% of max HP (whichever is greatest). That way we get more damage if used below 50% (compared to currently) and allowing to finish off opponent (albeit lower damage than pre-nerf).
Oh and they increased the CD again? Wasn't the nerf to the range enough? She already has no range to begin with and with the utl's range nerf she really has no range worth mentioning.

They also increased the mana cost of her Q making jungle nearly obsolete. The change to the jungle made it harder for her early game. Could we get increased mana regen while stealth to compensate(or higher base mana)? It's not like you can abuse in lane since you lose CS if you do.

The buff to AD ratios is nice but not worth all the nerfs.


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Keitterman

Senior Member

01-16-2013

I think this nerf was a great addition to her depth. You have to pick high dmg burst opener, or save it to ensure they do not escape. Every assassin should have to make such decisions. It's not coutner to what Zileas said at all, in fact it is righti n line with it, as if you pick correctly/incorrectly, you will know.


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THE FECKFACE

Senior Member

01-16-2013

If you were using it before to finish an opponent off then you were NOT using it optimally, and since optimal usage of skills is the point of this thread, you're a hypocrite.

If Eve's ult slows your target and gives a shield based on how many opponents you hit, and you kill an opponent with it, why do you still need a shield? The threat is gone. Why do they need to be slowed? They're dead.

Unless you use it as an initiate (which it's clearly designed to be) you are not using it optimally, before or after the change.

Optimal could also be defined as situational, you could use the cc aspect optimally, or the damage optimally. Either to catch an opponent or to burst them down harder. LoL is a highly fluid game, you should be too. Not getting the best of both worlds all the time isn't a reason to complain.

Also, unless they have flash, an initiate is always more optimal. Flash also isn't a reason to complain, it's not ALWAYS up, and players should have some counter-play available. You're just mad because you're not guaranteed a kill on any squishy without a pink ward anymore.


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Tristyric

Member

01-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by THE FECKFACE View Post
If you were using it before to finish an opponent off then you were NOT using it optimally, and since optimal usage of skills is the point of this thread, you're a hypocrite.

If Eve's ult slows your target and gives a shield based on how many opponents you hit, and you kill an opponent with it, why do you still need a shield? The threat is gone. Why do they need to be slowed? They're dead.

Also you CAN still use it optimally, you can use it as an initiate (as it's clearly designed to be) and if they have flash you sacrifice the cc aspect of it for maximizing the damage (and let's not forget about the shield). If they don't have flash up then they can't get away easily anyway.

If you save it for after the flash, then you have used it's cc effects optimally, at the cost of damage. You're just mad because you aren't guaranteed a kill on any squishy without a pink ward anymore.

Optimal is now optimal damage or optimal cc, not just simply optimal all the time.

Just because you don't get the best of both worlds now is not a reason to complain.
Sounds like you haven't played her at all. Counter arguments should contain at least some relevant information or experience, not just speculation and/or conjecture based on your personal opinion of the topic.

There are plenty of champions that are not forced to use their ultimate in this pristine perfect scenario you are dreaming up but they don't get so heavily punished for it. In that case we should riot simply set all offensive champion ultimate to not inflict fatal damage on enemy champions? Then everyone would be forced into these optimum situations that are so common in a consistently changing game environment and not just champions that you aren't fond of. Non-lethal death lotus sounds fantastic to me ;p

That aside this optimum situation you describe is only really holds merit in a 1v1 scenario and likely a gank at that. In reality however The 1v1 scenario becomes less and less likely the further on your round goes. Team fights of varying sizes far outnumber the individual pick offs in mid-late game compared to the early- early-mid game. That is where this ult is suffering the most. In any situation where you are not present at the start of the fight" and "your ult is not ready to go" there is absolutely no reason to bother using your ultimate. Eve can still win in a gank the problem lies in those moments where your not present at the onset of the battle. the longer it takes you to reach the fight the more diminished the effectiveness of her ult, up to a point where it can be nigh unusable.


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Hoshizora Kirara

Junior Member

01-16-2013

The Eve Nerf was really stupid, they just made her to be useless on teamfights and totally ruined her ult with the 3 changes.


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Adrian Umbra

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Senior Member

01-16-2013

Making too many changes at once to the same skill. It makes the skill far weaker in many ways versus just the overpowered one(s). They did the exact same thing to Diana and Rengar. And look at where that got us.


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THE FECKFACE

Senior Member

01-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tristyric View Post
Sounds like you haven't played her at all. Counter arguments should contain at least some relevant information or experience, not just speculation and/or conjecture based on your personal opinion of the topic.

There are plenty of champions that are not forced to use their ultimate in this pristine perfect scenario you are dreaming up but they don't get so heavily punished for it. In that case we should riot simply set all offensive champion ultimate to not inflict fatal damage on enemy champions? Then everyone would be forced into these optimum situations that are so common in a consistently changing game environment and not just champions that you aren't fond of. Non-lethal death lotus sounds fantastic to me ;p

That aside this optimum situation you describe is only really holds merit in a 1v1 scenario and likely a gank at that. In reality however The 1v1 scenario becomes less and less likely the further on your round goes. Team fights of varying sizes far outnumber the individual pick offs in mid-late game compared to the early- early-mid game. That is where this ult is suffering the most. In any situation where you are not present at the start of the fight" and "your ult is not ready to go" there is absolutely no reason to bother using your ultimate. Eve can still win in a gank the problem lies in those moments where your not present at the onset of the battle. the longer it takes you to reach the fight the more diminished the effectiveness of her ult, up to a point where it can be nigh unusable.
I have played Eve some, not a ton, you're right about that. I prefer other champs over assassins, but I know the champ well enough.

My point was the OP complaining about optimal usage of an ability, and that using an ability which slows your target and gives a shield to finish someone, is not optimal usage.

The ult was designed to be used as an initiate, or at the very least, early enough in the fight to take advantage of the shield and slow. NOT as an execute where you gain nothing from 2/3 of the abilities effects.

For the record, the OP was also talking about 1v1 scenarios, which is why I didn't mention team fights. I'm mostly playing devil's advocate, and pointing out the fact that to complain about the optimal usage of an ability which wasn't being used optimally in the first place, is ridiculous.

As far as flash goes, complaining about an escape doing it's job effectively is equally ridiculous.


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Keitterman

Senior Member

01-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoshizora Kirara View Post
The Eve Nerf was really stupid, they just made her to be useless on teamfights and totally ruined her ult with the 3 changes.
A skill that does 25% opening a team fight is useless? Sure it's not true damage, but that's still quite a bit for an AOE

a skill that allows an assassint to stick to their target is useless?


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l33t

Senior Member

01-16-2013

Just played the new changes today. Never really played eve before a week ago. Just started then.

I can say though that the nerfs are well over done. I'm okay with all the nerfs besides the ult nerf. You never really ran out of mana with her and it was easy to get fed.

But the nerf on her ult is just the worst. There is no base damage on it, so if you are running away from alkali when she has 100 hp and you're low on mana. Ult her, does nothing (shes already low), the shield is so tiny you get from it, she just keeps leaping to you when youre out of mana. They need to reverse the ult changes. Making the range smaller is okay, but the no base damage change when they use current instead of max... is just horrible.