@Riot: Every thief you've made has ditched that role for something else

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basketofseals

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Senior Member

01-12-2013

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Originally Posted by Helmight View Post
See, I think that out of the first four champions you listed, I think only one of them has an active reason to NOT join - Elise. Nami clearly joined to use her political power as a champion to expedite her search for the moonstone. It's not like she could very well search all of Valoran for one, so it makes sense to gain standing at the most public forum in the world. Syndra I feel would have joined the League to further expand her powers - what better training field is there? It's not like the Ionian government is going to spirit her away in the middle of a match. I can't see any specific reason for Zyra to join, but it's not like there's any reason for her NOT to join either.

Political standing has little to do with admission to the League, so I'm not sure why Draven and Fiora were brought up. They're both there for their own reasons, which seems to be a valid reason for champions to join up. We have quite a few champs who're only participating for personal gain. I can't see that the League has anything to gain by forcibly recruiting champions either - perhaps there is something that I haven't thought of, but in that situation why would they seek out somewhat dangerous beings like Syndra and Elise? That line of logic doesn't make a whole lot of sense, at least to me.

Perhaps there is some conspiracy going on in the League - the last JoJ pretty much came out and said that - but I don't think it has anything to do with the recent champions and their joining.
Maybe that was just my personal opinion, but the League is supposed to be this super juggernaut of a political figure. I suppose I just find it very odd that just anyone now can join an institution that was once established to be peace keeping order.

Syndra went bat**** crazy and murdered a man who was going to suppress her powers. She would most certainly not join the League who not only can inhibit her strength, but actively control her.

My info on Zyra is less concrete, but I was under the assumption that she was a very wrathful force that was just learning what it was like to be alive. Joining the League is a very odd move considering she would have no, or at least very little, knowledge of it. Maybe the problem here is how it was presented to us. If she were a topic of the JoJ for a while and then joined like Lee Sin it would make sense, but we saw it was she gained life and then immediately joined right after.

Nami I'm willing to relent. I've no idea how politically savvy she is. She may have some plan for all I know, but again this is probably another thing like Zyra where it just seems too sudden.

All that being said, the league has MANY champions that they've forced into cooperation. Even ignoring early incidents like Kayle, Morgana, and Taric, there's still Noc, Brand, the void monsters, and Fiddles sorta. The League has a lot to gain from these things. These incidents attract attention to the League and a possible pawn for them to use that no one would care about should they need to dispose of them.

Let's just assume I'm correct for a moment so I can give an example. Say there's some political unrest in certain areas, or there's an event that threatens to overthrow the league. A champion like Noc could "escape" and slaughter whoever is around. Since the process of summoning and controlling a champion has no visual queue, they simply send a batch of heroic champions to dispose of Noc and the League can play the whole thing off as a tragedy that they responded to with the best of their ability.


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Brinsor

Senior Member

01-12-2013

Sounds like a Cracker XD


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Helmight

Senior Member

01-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by basketofseals View Post
Maybe that was just my personal opinion, but the League is supposed to be this super juggernaut of a political figure. I suppose I just find it very odd that just anyone now can join an institution that was once established to be peace keeping order.

Syndra went bat**** crazy and murdered a man who was going to suppress her powers. She would most certainly not join the League who not only can inhibit her strength, but actively control her.

My info on Zyra is less concrete, but I was under the assumption that she was a very wrathful force that was just learning what it was like to be alive. Joining the League is a very odd move considering she would have no, or at least very little, knowledge of it. Maybe the problem here is how it was presented to us. If she were a topic of the JoJ for a while and then joined like Lee Sin it would make sense, but we saw it was she gained life and then immediately joined right after.

Nami I'm willing to relent. I've no idea how politically savvy she is. She may have some plan for all I know, but again this is probably another thing like Zyra where it just seems too sudden.

All that being said, the league has MANY champions that they've forced into cooperation. Even ignoring early incidents like Kayle, Morgana, and Taric, there's still Noc, Brand, the void monsters, and Fiddles sorta. The League has a lot to gain from these things. These incidents attract attention to the League and a possible pawn for them to use that no one would care about should they need to dispose of them.

Let's just assume I'm correct for a moment so I can give an example. Say there's some political unrest in certain areas, or there's an event that threatens to overthrow the league. A champion like Noc could "escape" and slaughter whoever is around. Since the process of summoning and controlling a champion has no visual cue, they simply send a batch of heroic champions to dispose of Noc and the League can play the whole thing off as a tragedy that they responded to with the best of their ability.
The League in and of itself isn't so much a peacekeeping force - at least, it wasn't formerly that way. Its creation and purpose are designed to prevent future Rune Wars and preserve peace amongst the city-states by giving them an alternate way of settling differences. It was NEVER intended to be an all-powerful adjudicating body with the power to forcefully settle conflicts, at least not until the events in Kalamanda. It's become that way simply because the Summoners are essentially all-powerful and when all of them are working together in the same organization, there are few who could stop them.

The problem I have with your way of thinking about Syndra is that the League tends to NOT reduce the power of or put shackles on beings that join it willingly, no matter how powerful or dangerous they might be. Somewhat vicious creatures like Cho'Gath and Hecarim have joined, most with less-than-savory intentions for the world in general, and yet the League does nothing to curb their power for fear of alienating the rest of the champions and the world at large. They wouldn't dare touch Syndra therefore, especially since her goals are somewhat less deadly than other champions'.

We can't really come to a decision either way about Zyra simply because we have so little information on her. She's not a "wrathful force" like Maokai was - she's just a somewhat brutal plant life-form that kills to survive, and now she exists in a somewhat more powerful human form. Who knows what her thought processes are like xD.

I have to disagree with some of your statements on above champions. Nocturne and Brand were forced into the League as a side effect of their capture - the Institute of War certainly couldn't let the pair of those beings run free, and it was only as an afterthought that they were offered a place in the League. In Nocturne's case specifically, he was forced to fight as a form of retribution for his crimes against the Summoners. In regards to the Voidborn, Cho'Gath fights specifically because it entertains him - he MADE the choice to battle in the League. I would assume that the other Voidborn all made similar choices. None of them are there against their will.

I can see how the League could theoretically exploit its power, but as of yet they have done nothing of the sort except possibly at Kalamanda. Potentially we may see champions that have been coerced into joining in the future, but that's a fairly important part of a champion's backstory and as such I would assume we'd see it in their lore.


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basketofseals

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Senior Member

01-14-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Helmight View Post
The League in and of itself isn't so much a peacekeeping force - at least, it wasn't formerly that way. Its creation and purpose are designed to prevent future Rune Wars and preserve peace amongst the city-states by giving them an alternate way of settling differences. It was NEVER intended to be an all-powerful adjudicating body with the power to forcefully settle conflicts, at least not until the events in Kalamanda. It's become that way simply because the Summoners are essentially all-powerful and when all of them are working together in the same organization, there are few who could stop them.

The problem I have with your way of thinking about Syndra is that the League tends to NOT reduce the power of or put shackles on beings that join it willingly, no matter how powerful or dangerous they might be. Somewhat vicious creatures like Cho'Gath and Hecarim have joined, most with less-than-savory intentions for the world in general, and yet the League does nothing to curb their power for fear of alienating the rest of the champions and the world at large. They wouldn't dare touch Syndra therefore, especially since her goals are somewhat less deadly than other champions'.

We can't really come to a decision either way about Zyra simply because we have so little information on her. She's not a "wrathful force" like Maokai was - she's just a somewhat brutal plant life-form that kills to survive, and now she exists in a somewhat more powerful human form. Who knows what her thought processes are like xD.

I have to disagree with some of your statements on above champions. Nocturne and Brand were forced into the League as a side effect of their capture - the Institute of War certainly couldn't let the pair of those beings run free, and it was only as an afterthought that they were offered a place in the League. In Nocturne's case specifically, he was forced to fight as a form of retribution for his crimes against the Summoners. In regards to the Voidborn, Cho'Gath fights specifically because it entertains him - he MADE the choice to battle in the League. I would assume that the other Voidborn all made similar choices. None of them are there against their will.

I can see how the League could theoretically exploit its power, but as of yet they have done nothing of the sort except possibly at Kalamanda. Potentially we may see champions that have been coerced into joining in the future, but that's a fairly important part of a champion's backstory and as such I would assume we'd see it in their lore.
First of off I'd like to state I'm aware of what the League does, I was just probably explaining in an absolutely nonsensical hyperbolic way, and if I do that again I apologize.

The League however most certainly does limit the power of champions albeit temporarily, but I can't see Syndra jiving with that at all. If champion power was not inhibited in any way, there's no way Maokai could 1v6 people on the Twisted Treeline and still be playable. Not to mention by joining she has put a massive "I MAY GO INSANE AND SLAUGHTER EVERYONE SO PAY ATTENTION TO ME" sign on her forehead. This goes more in line as to why the League would ADMIT dangerous champions, but not why they'd want to join. It would make more sense for her personality to go into hiding and build up her own power.

Zyra however I'm most certain is a wrathful force of nature. There was a lot of debate on the disparity of the teaser art and the official splash art, and Morello came out and said that the teaser was the one that was inaccurate. Her taunt "No place is safe while I'm free!" I would say supports this.

Another part of how lore was delivered before is that we, as in us players, are summoners. This was why the JoJ was lauded as a great lore source. Remember that this means that lore can be withheld from us. If the League doesn't want us to know something, that's in their power to do so.

The problem with Noc's reasoning for being on the fields of justice is that info is 100% unreliable. The only information we have about Noc is from the League, and they could tell us anything and we'd be none the wiser as Noc is not seen outside the fields or his prison..


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Melancholy Exile

Senior Member

01-14-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by basketofseals View Post
The League however most certainly does limit the power of champions albeit temporarily, but I can't see Syndra jiving with that at all. If champion power was not inhibited in any way, there's no way Maokai could 1v6 people on the Twisted Treeline and still be playable. Not to mention by joining she has put a massive "I MAY GO INSANE AND SLAUGHTER EVERYONE SO PAY ATTENTION TO ME" sign on her forehead. This goes more in line as to why the League would ADMIT dangerous champions, but not why they'd want to join. It would make more sense for her personality to go into hiding and build up her own power.
I'd say there's a very simple reason for Syndra to join the League: Arrogance.

Syndra isn't the sort of person who wouldn't consider going into hiding or limiting herself. She believes that her powers are unmatched and, after the death of the last person who sought to contain her powers, that she can overwhelm anyone who tries to limit her potential. In her mind, she has nothing to fear from the Institute of War. When she tires of their games, she will simply cast them aside and crush them underfoot.

The League is a playground to her, not a prison, and while it still provides her with amusement, she has no reason to leave the place in ruins.


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basketofseals

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Senior Member

01-14-2013

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Originally Posted by Melancholy Exile View Post
I'd say there's a very simple reason for Syndra to join the League: Arrogance.

Syndra isn't the sort of person who wouldn't consider going into hiding or limiting herself. She believes that her powers are unmatched and, after the death of the last person who sought to contain her powers, that she can overwhelm anyone who tries to limit her potential. In her mind, she has nothing to fear from the Institute of War. When she tires of their games, she will simply cast them aside and crush them underfoot.

The League is a playground to her, not a prison, and while it still provides her with amusement, she has no reason to leave the place in ruins.
I can see where you're coming from, but I think at this point we're just interpreting the character different with what little info is available.

The way I see it, Syndra would not want to put herself in any situation where she may be inhibited, regardless of how easily she could get away. She fears not being in complete control over herself, and would rather destroy everything than not be free. I'm sure you can see why Syndra joining the League doesn't make sense in my version, but makes perfect sense in yours.

Another thing, that's important, is that we aren't aware of is how she would get stronger joining the League. Keep in mind it's not champions fighting each other on the fields, it's summoners controlling them. Surely being a controlled puppet on the fields of justice isn't exactly stretching her magical muscles.


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Melancholy Exile

Senior Member

01-14-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by basketofseals View Post
I can see where you're coming from, but I think at this point we're just interpreting the character different with what little info is available.

The way I see it, Syndra would not want to put herself in any situation where she may be inhibited, regardless of how easily she could get away. She fears not being in complete control over herself, and would rather destroy everything than not be free. I'm sure you can see why Syndra joining the League doesn't make sense in my version, but makes perfect sense in yours.

Another thing, that's important, is that we aren't aware of is how she would get stronger joining the League. Keep in mind it's not champions fighting each other on the fields, it's summoners controlling them. Surely being a controlled puppet on the fields of justice isn't exactly stretching her magical muscles.
Unfortunately, that first point is exactly what the guys at Riot have decided to leave us with. I don't strictly disagree with you; the opinion I stated above is simply my attempt at rationalising why Syndra would join the League.

I'd say your latter point is, once again, a matter of opinion and a major problem that emerges when you're caught between the constraints of the game and the "real" version of events. Even if their actions are controlled on the Fields, matches in the League still involve real people fighting to the "death". It's a combat arena where the participants face off against some of the most powerful mages, warriors and ... others in the world. What we players experience, in the guise of a summoner, is not the experience the champions will have and it's impossible for us to really say just what being in their shoes is like.

If her in-game quotations are anything to go by, Syndra certainly enjoys throwing her weight about.


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Helmight

Senior Member

01-14-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by basketofseals View Post
First of off I'd like to state I'm aware of what the League does, I was just probably explaining in an absolutely nonsensical hyperbolic way, and if I do that again I apologize.

The League however most certainly does limit the power of champions albeit temporarily, but I can't see Syndra jiving with that at all. If champion power was not inhibited in any way, there's no way Maokai could 1v6 people on the Twisted Treeline and still be playable. Not to mention by joining she has put a massive "I MAY GO INSANE AND SLAUGHTER EVERYONE SO PAY ATTENTION TO ME" sign on her forehead. This goes more in line as to why the League would ADMIT dangerous champions, but not why they'd want to join. It would make more sense for her personality to go into hiding and build up her own power.

Zyra however I'm most certain is a wrathful force of nature. There was a lot of debate on the disparity of the teaser art and the official splash art, and Morello came out and said that the teaser was the one that was inaccurate. Her taunt "No place is safe while I'm free!" I would say supports this.

Another part of how lore was delivered before is that we, as in us players, are summoners. This was why the JoJ was lauded as a great lore source. Remember that this means that lore can be withheld from us. If the League doesn't want us to know something, that's in their power to do so.

The problem with Noc's reasoning for being on the fields of justice is that info is 100% unreliable. The only information we have about Noc is from the League, and they could tell us anything and we'd be none the wiser as Noc is not seen outside the fields or his prison..
Gotcha, sorry. I go a little overboard when I get into a discussion xD I guess I should have assumed that you know what the League's purpose is if you're on the Lore forums.

The problem I have with your interpretation of Zyra though is that nowhere in her lore is she ever cast as being ANGRY about her transformation. If anything, it was a last-minute blessing that allows her to continue to survive, since clearly her race was dying out thanks to the dearth of food. It's immensely odd to me that she could now be considered such a vengeful being, simply because she was the one who transformed herself and has no problems with any beings currently in the League or with the Institute of War. Further lore may have developed this better, but that's just picking on a pain that all of us here know too well.

I think that you're overthinking Riot's willingness to stay in-character. Sure, we are technically Summoners who participate in the League, but we've also been hounding Riot for Lore for a while now. I would assume that if they were staying in character about it, we would've gotten responses that are more in-character, like Morello saying "There are private concerns at the upper levels of the Institute that the community is not allowed to know" or something like that. What we've gotten instead were relatively straightforward responses that threw aside their in-universe personas (though they've yet to make good on their promises). I think it would be kinda cool if they canonized the lack of lore, but I don't think that that's the current issue.


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basketofseals

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Senior Member

01-15-2013

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Originally Posted by Helmight View Post
Gotcha, sorry. I go a little overboard when I get into a discussion xD I guess I should have assumed that you know what the League's purpose is if you're on the Lore forums.

The problem I have with your interpretation of Zyra though is that nowhere in her lore is she ever cast as being ANGRY about her transformation. If anything, it was a last-minute blessing that allows her to continue to survive, since clearly her race was dying out thanks to the dearth of food. It's immensely odd to me that she could now be considered such a vengeful being, simply because she was the one who transformed herself and has no problems with any beings currently in the League or with the Institute of War. Further lore may have developed this better, but that's just picking on a pain that all of us here know too well.

I think that you're overthinking Riot's willingness to stay in-character. Sure, we are technically Summoners who participate in the League, but we've also been hounding Riot for Lore for a while now. I would assume that if they were staying in character about it, we would've gotten responses that are more in-character, like Morello saying "There are private concerns at the upper levels of the Institute that the community is not allowed to know" or something like that. What we've gotten instead were relatively straightforward responses that threw aside their in-universe personas (though they've yet to make good on their promises). I think it would be kinda cool if they canonized the lack of lore, but I don't think that that's the current issue.
I don't mean to say Zyra is angry at her transformation. It's stated quite clearly that she's never felt so alive. She's just angry in general. Lemme see if I can find Morello's post, but no promises.

I know I'm probably over thinking Riot being in character, but I think it's more blind hope than anything

Edit: Searching through old posts shows the that what I thought I read wasn't what I read. She was simply described as "aggressive" and an "infestor." Her taunt sure left a strong impression on me though.


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Lv 99 Rl0TEN

Member

01-15-2013

Elise is easy. She's looking for followers to feed to her almighty spider.


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