What....?

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Zaresin

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Senior Member

01-07-2013

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Originally Posted by An Troll View Post
I don't consider someone throwing a ranked game to be a "petty grievance", and where did you see me trying to "vindicate myself" in all chat....?.

I called people out for what appeared to be intentional throwing in hopes of getting them to straighten up and try to win the game; it works sometimes. In retrospect, reading over the cases, I realize that it probably didn't help and I should have just not said anything (this is the first time I've had the advantage of that perspective; I've been temporarily banned in the past, but my last ban was 8 months ago, before reform cards came out).

You DO realize that you're being more negative in your post than I was in my games, right?



I just checked the reply I received from Riot when I submitted screenshots of the post-game chat from game 3 (where Nidalee and Draven lied to the enemy team in post-game chat trying to get them to report me), and the date was 10/6/2012, which would be just over three months ago.
First off..this isnt' the game and my behavior on the forums varies greatly compared tot he games as i usually don't talk as there is really no need or I'm using Skype. Second did you not refure to section 4 of the quote? Third, having an /all chat convo about your teammates gives the impression you are trying to vindicate yourself for your poor interaction with your teammates and to belittle them. It is petty and childish.


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An Troll

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01-07-2013

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Originally Posted by Zaresin View Post
First off..this isnt' the game and my behavior on the forums varies greatly compared tot he games as i usually don't talk as there is really no need or I'm using Skype
Gotcha, I guess I see your point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaresin View Post
Second did you not refure to section 4 of the quote?
Huh? I'm not sure what you're asking -.-;;

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaresin View Post
Third, having an /all chat convo about your teammates gives the impression you are trying to vindicate yourself for your poor interaction with your teammates and to belittle them. It is petty and childish.
You're correct, and in looking over my reform card, I've realized that as well.

The reason I did that was twofold: first, because when being called out for bad behavior, players sometimes reverse it, and second, because I've been banned in the past (with no reform card, so I didn't know what I was actually being banned for) and am paranoid about people lying in their reports, so I wanted to give the Tribunal an accurate picture of what was going on.

As I said, though, looking over my reform card, I realize it just looks petty and annoying, and that I really shouldn't do it.


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xystris

Senior Member

01-07-2013

permaban deserved. will click punish again.


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Zaresin

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01-07-2013

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Originally Posted by An Troll View Post
Gotcha, I guess I see your point.



Huh? I'm not sure what you're asking -.-;;



You're correct, and in looking over my reform card, I've realized that as well.

The reason I did that was twofold: first, because when being called out for bad behavior, players sometimes reverse it, and second, because I've been banned in the past (with no reform card, so I didn't know what I was actually being banned for) and am paranoid about people lying in their reports, so I wanted to give the Tribunal an accurate picture of what was going on.

As I said, though, looking over my reform card, I realize it just looks petty and annoying, and that I really shouldn't do it.
Negative reinforcement hasn't and never will make someone do better. Making someone feel bad about themselves makes their behavior grow worse. There is a reason it is called negative reinforcement.

I'll repost post lytes comment on things and please refer to section four of his post as well as section 1


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
Lately, I've been receiving a lot of e-mails about the same questions and complaints about the Tribunal. I'm working with WookieCookie, RiotSeb and statuskwoh to add these to the Tribunal FAQs but we would love to discuss them here first.

1) What's the point of having a language filter if I can get banned for 'adult' language?
a) We aren't out to punish players who use adult language; in fact, very few players are ever banned for saying stuff like "f***, I missed that skill shot" or "damn, f***ing close game!" However, the language filter is not an excuse to verbally abuse someone in the game. When you verbally abuse or harass someone by calling them "f***ing ******" or "n*gger noob", that's when you've crossed the line and will be punished by the Tribunal. I've said this before and I'll say it again, we aren't trying to clean online games of adult language; we're trying to reform or get rid of jerks who like to verbally abuse and harass other players.

2) I only have 1 bad game in my Tribunal Reform Card, why am I banned???
a) The Tribunal verdict is not based on a 'majority' rule; there is also no requirement that all games have to be toxic for it to warrant a suspension. Depending on the case, sometimes 1 game is all that is needed to show that the player deserves a suspension. To Tribunal reviewers, decisions like these are up to you. When you view a Tribunal case, the questions you should ask yourselves are, "Is this player's behavior appropriate in League of Legends?" and "Would I want to play with this player?"

3) This player should have been banned, but he was pardoned. The Tribunal is broken!
a) The Tribunal was inspired by 'crowdsourcing' research. When I was still a student, I worked with labs that developed games such as "Foldit" that took advantage of crowdsourcing to find solutions to extremely tricky tasks--when you read this research you truly appreciate how accurate crowdsourcing systems can be. In fact, the Tribunal is far more accurate than traditional Player Support.

However, the Tribunal isn't perfect. The design is based on statistical probability and random sampling and every system like this has outliers. This means that sometimes, a player has an egregious Tribunal case but is still pardoned because he happened to get a lenient set of voters; however, if the player is truly toxic, he actually is re-sent back to the Tribunal in a handful of games and is usually accurately punished in his second visit to the Tribunal.

Because the Tribunal is designed to identify frequency and consistency of toxic behavior, this is why it doesn't take into account the severity of the offense. If a player is extremely toxic he will quickly get banned multiple times by the Tribunal until he is permabanned; in fact, extremely toxic players end up permabanned significantly faster than players who are 'less severe.' In the future, we may want to brainstorm ways to improve on the Tribunal so that it does take into account severity and adjusts punishments accordingly... but we're not there yet.

4) That player in my game was far worse than me. Why am I banned???
a) I'll keep this one simple: retaliation isn't OK. Reacting to a toxic player by being toxic just incites that player to be even worse--it also ruins the game for up to 8 other players. It is far, far worse to watch two people yelling at each other all game than it is to watch 1 player ranting into blank space. Almost everyone in the game can find someone out there that behaves worse than they do--but so what? Finding someone worse doesn't justify your behavior or justify retaliation. We expect more out of our players. What players often don't realize is... those other players in your game that you thought were worse? Nearly 100% of the time, those players were banned even before you were. If someone is being toxic, just report them and move on. If you retaliate, both of you will be banned. It's really that simple.

5) Low skill players should be banned from the game! The Tribunal should only ban Leavers/AFK and intentional feeders, those are the only types of players that really ruin games!
a) No. Just no. Jerks ruin games. League of Legends is for everyone whether they are 500 Elo or 2500 Elo. It's not a game for jerks.


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An Troll

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Senior Member

01-07-2013

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Originally Posted by Zaresin View Post
Negative reinforcement hasn't and never will make someone do better. Making someone feel bad about themselves makes their behavior grow worse. There is a reason it is called negative reinforcement.

I'll repost post lytes comment on things and please refer to section four of his post as well as section 1
Again, you are correct, but my question isn't "did I do anything wrong?"; we all know the answer to that is "yes".

My question is "did this really warrant a permanent ban?"

It has been 8 months since I've gotten anything from the Tribunal, and I've been trying to improve my behavior, even without the benefit of a reform card. All of my bans from the Tribunal were from when names showed in Tribunal, and I've had MANY people admit that they'd punish me in Tribunal without even reading my case, just because of my name. One of the reporters in my reform card says he's reporting me partly because of my name.

Most of what I actually did wrong revolved around having a negative attitude. I never realized just how bad my complaining about teammates ruining games looked, or how much of a negative experience it created for others in the game. You just don't get the same perspective actually in the game, being trolled and/or harassed by teammates, as you do from looking at a Tribunal case after it's all said and done.

Prior to this ban, I had no idea what I was actually being banned for - people said they were reporting me for throwing games (when I actually wasn't), resulting in me trying hard to make it clear in chat that I wasn't (which actually made my situation worse).

Now that I realize just what effect that attitude was having, I'm obviously going to stop (the main reason I STARTED doing that was because I thought I was being banned for false "throwing the game / intentional feeding" reports), but it's too late now.


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Zaresin

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Senior Member

01-07-2013

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Originally Posted by An Troll View Post
Again, you are correct, but my question isn't "did I do anything wrong?"; we all know the answer to that is "yes".

My question is "did this really warrant a permanent ban?"

It has been 8 months since I've gotten anything from the Tribunal, and I've been trying to improve my behavior, even without the benefit of a reform card. All of my bans from the Tribunal were from when names showed in Tribunal, and I've had MANY people admit that they'd punish me in Tribunal without even reading my case, just because of my name. One of the reporters in my reform card says he's reporting me partly because of my name.

Most of what I actually did wrong revolved around having a negative attitude. I never realized just how bad my complaining about teammates ruining games looked, or how much of a negative experience it created for others in the game. You just don't get the same perspective actually in the game, being trolled and/or harassed by teammates, as you do from looking at a Tribunal case after it's all said and done.

Prior to this ban, I had no idea what I was actually being banned for - people said they were reporting me for throwing games (when I actually wasn't), resulting in me trying hard to make it clear in chat that I wasn't (which actually made my situation worse).

Now that I realize just what effect that attitude was having, I'm obviously going to stop (the main reason I STARTED doing that was because I thought I was being banned for false "throwing the game / intentional feeding" reports), but it's too late now.
When in doubt, don't say anything. What you were essentially doing was giving the people who were raging at you the ammunition they needed to get you banned. You were baited and you took it. Just say ok and move on. Report them after the game and go on to your next game. Talking back just helps their case in getting you banned bud. It doesn't help you and it certainly doesnt' make the game enjoyable for the others that are actually trying to have fun.

Now to answer your question about the perm ban thing.

Riot decides all bans 3 days up to perm ban. The only automated thing about the tribunal is the warning and the 24 hour ban. After that, it is in Riots hands after the tribunal renders judgement. For riot to NOT give you a perm ban after your 2 week ban, you need to have shown significant progress in trying to change your behavior and that behavior extends to the forums, pre and post game chat as well as in game. They can see everything. You comment or post on here and it is linked to your name no matter what you do even if you delete or edit your post it is perm in their system. Anything you type in the client is perm in their system. They use all the informatics available to them to decide on bans. They obviously didn't think your behavior had improved enough not to prevent you from losing your account. I'm sorry but there is nothing we can do. Riot made the decision, we did not. We just decided whether or not your case was guilty of breaking the summoners code. Any punishment thereafter is out of our hands.


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An Troll

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01-07-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaresin View Post
When in doubt, don't say anything. What you were essentially doing was giving the people who were raging at you the ammunition they needed to get you banned. You were baited and you took it. Just say ok and move on. Report them after the game and go on to your next game. Talking back just helps their case in getting you banned bud. It doesn't help you and it certainly doesnt' make the game enjoyable for the others that are actually trying to have fun.

Now to answer your question about the perm ban thing.

Riot decides all bans 3 days up to perm ban. The only automated thing about the tribunal is the warning and the 24 hour ban. After that, it is in Riots hands after the tribunal renders judgement. For riot to NOT give you a perm ban after your 2 week ban, you need to have shown significant progress in trying to change your behavior and that behavior extends to the forums, pre and post game chat as well as in game. They can see everything. You comment or post on here and it is linked to your name no matter what you do even if you delete or edit your post it is perm in their system. Anything you type in the client is perm in their system. They use all the informatics available to them to decide on bans. They obviously didn't think your behavior had improved enough not to prevent you from losing your account. I'm sorry but there is nothing we can do. Riot made the decision, we did not. We just decided whether or not your case was guilty of breaking the summoners code. Any punishment thereafter is out of our hands.

Lol, yup, that's pretty much what I expected, but I was hoping I'd be wrong =\

I feel like some kind of nutcase who was wearing a tinfoil hat to avoid the mind control beams from aliens and/or the government, then got struck by lightning and killed because he wore metal on his head during a thunderstorm.

Well, thanks for trying to help; I really appreciate it. If only they'd come out with reform cards sooner T_T


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Zaresin

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01-07-2013

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Originally Posted by An Troll View Post
Lol, yup, that's pretty much what I expected, but I was hoping I'd be wrong =\

I feel like some kind of nutcase who was wearing a tinfoil hat to avoid the mind control beams from aliens and/or the government, then got struck by lightning and killed because he wore metal on his head during a thunderstorm.

Well, thanks for trying to help; I really appreciate it. If only they'd come out with reform cards sooner T_T
I want to say they have been out for about 4 months now. It is still in a trial phase to see how well they are doing and if they are offering enough pert info to get the point across. I do have to say I am sorry that it was your perm ban as you have actually been the nicest person I have had the pleasure of talking with that got banned. I'm used to seeing the posts about how it was still the other person's fault and I did nothing wrong so your views are irrelevant, even though they asked for the opinion in the first place (still confused on that line of thinking).

If you decide to make a new account just try and learn from your mistakes and if you find yourself getting frustrated taking a break after that game to cool off and let the adrenaline stop pumping. Disable /all chat and keep your in game chat to a minimum as (mia/re and b ping for the rest) and I think you'll do fine.


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Devastator Jones

Senior Member

01-07-2013

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Originally Posted by Zaresin View Post
Negative reinforcement hasn't and never will make someone do better. Making someone feel bad about themselves makes their behavior grow worse. There is a reason it is called negative reinforcement.
Eh. You don't understand what "negative reinforcement" is. Negative reinforcement is when you remove an undesirable stimulus to encourage a certain behavior. Trust me, I took behavior mod in College. Making someone "feel bad" about themselves would be "punishment", not negative reinforcement.

Negative reinforcement in LoL would be rolling back the ban level over time for good behavior. Since a high ban level is undesirable - if you're at the 2 week ban level, you would really want that to be rolled back to a 1 week or lower so you don't get a permaban. If Riot reduces your ban level, that is negative reinforcement for your good behavior in game.

Think of it like this.

- Positive Reinforcement "Adds" a desirable stimulus - like getting a cookie for washing the dishes.

- Negative Reinforcement "Removes" an undesirable stimulus - like reducing jail time for good behavior.

- Punishment "Adds" an undesirable stimulus, or "Removes" a desirable stimulus - like a spanking for staying out too late, or not letting your child play LoL after he got caught doing something bad - or getting banned from LoL for being a jerk. LoL being the desirable stimulus, and not being able to play being the removal of the desired stimuli - hence punishment.


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Shelzin

Senior Member

01-07-2013

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Originally Posted by Uh Kat Iz Fine 2 View Post
Eh. You don't understand what "negative reinforcement" is. Negative reinforcement is when you remove an undesirable stimulus to encourage a certain behavior. Trust me, I took behavior mod in College. Making someone "feel bad" about themselves would be "punishment", not negative reinforcement.

Negative reinforcement in LoL would be rolling back the ban level over time for good behavior. Since a high ban level is undesirable - if you're at the 2 week ban level, you would really want that to be rolled back to a 1 week or lower so you don't get a permaban. If Riot reduces your ban level, that is negative reinforcement for your good behavior in game.

Think of it like this.

Positive Reinforcement "Adds" a desirable stimulus - like getting a cookie for washing the dishes.
Negative Reinforcement "Removes" an undesirable stimulus - like reducing jail time for good behavior.
Punishment "Adds" an undesirable stimulus, or "Removes" a desirable stimulus - like a spanking for staying out too late, or not letting your child play LoL after he got caught doing something bad.
Whatever else this guy is... Pretty good with the logic.