Revive: turning bad plays into undeserved wins since 2011

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konfetarius

Senior Member

12-31-2012

Quote:
I am seriously tired of the stupid cooldown argument. It is just as bad as the "everybody can use it" argument. Losing the game then turning it completely around with a button is gamebreaking even on a 9 minute cooldown.
You see, that's where the problem is. If your team can't do the revive zerging while they can, somewhere, somehow, your team didn't get "unfairly screwed by a bull**** spell," your team screwed up in the first place by wasting your revives. Your team mismanaged the strategic resource that is a 9 minute cooldown spell and is paying for it.

If you are in a situation where enemy has significantly more revives than you ready and you are 1 capping action away from losing the game, you aren't winning or outplaying anything in the first place. You've made the bad plays earlier in the game and are losing as a consequence of those bad plays by not having a revive ready to counter their revive zerg.


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Warlord Buwberry

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Senior Member

12-31-2012

Reviving just to revive is dumb. You should always save your last revive when the game gets tight in the 100 nexus health or less range, unless it's absolutely necessary to save one of your 2 closest towers or you can get up and finish the windmill fight in your favor. If not, just stay dead and wait for a better time.

There's actually strategy for using revive, the -2/+2 revive timers have no strategy. Should work on that **** first. just because it's 30-25 nexus health doesn't mean the 25 nexus health team "Deserves" a better revive timer.


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naotasan

Senior Member

12-31-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by FDru View Post
Because they can just disable Kassadin whenever they want without any problems right?
I wasn't thinking that linear of a solution, more life nerfs/buffs that would make him less viable on Dominion without hurting him on SR. But if he was disabled in just Dominion I could work with that. Thanks for the idea.


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Reynmaker

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Senior Member

12-31-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by konfetarius View Post
Revive has a 9 minute cooldown. It's not a freebie mistake eraser when using it can be a mistake in and of itself or when being forced to use it is a consequence of making a mistake.

Imagine, for a second, if in an RTS, a unit producing factory was called to be a mistake eraser because you could rebuild your army after losing it. This is how silly your argument looks here.
This is what I was thinking also, If they are so terribad, wouldn't they derp again within the 9 minutes and let superior gameplay shine through ? Or are they only bad when revive is up ?


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Painkillar

Senior Member

12-31-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by konfetarius View Post
You see, that's where the problem is. If your team can't do the revive zerging while they can, somewhere, somehow, your team didn't get "unfairly screwed by a bull**** spell," your team screwed up in the first place by wasting your revives. Your team mismanaged the strategic resource that is a 9 minute cooldown spell and is paying for it.

If you are in a situation where enemy has significantly more revives than you ready and you are 1 capping action away from losing the game, you aren't winning or outplaying anything in the first place. You've made the bad plays earlier in the game and are losing as a consequence of those bad plays by not having a revive ready to counter their revive zerg.
This


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V y

Senior Member

12-31-2012

Revive wins games. Its absolutely required for dominion.


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naotasan

Senior Member

12-31-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by ilikepotatoes454 View Post
Revive wins games. Its absolutely required for dominion.
Not true. I've seen a team of flash/ignites and flash/ghosts beat a team of revive/garrison and revive/exhaust.

At higher level of play when the team skill is more balanced, it helps win games, but isn't the sole cause 100% of the time.


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bierfaust

Senior Member

12-31-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by konfetarius View Post
You see, that's where the problem is. If your team can't do the revive zerging while they can, somewhere, somehow, your team didn't get "unfairly screwed by a bull**** spell," your team screwed up in the first place by wasting your revives. Your team mismanaged the strategic resource that is a 9 minute cooldown spell and is paying for it.

If you are in a situation where enemy has significantly more revives than you ready and you are 1 capping action away from losing the game, you aren't winning or outplaying anything in the first place. You've made the bad plays earlier in the game and are losing as a consequence of those bad plays by not having a revive ready to counter their revive zerg.

You still don't get it do you. Let me put it as simple as possible:

Death should have an impact.

Revive negates that impact.

This becomes ever more important as the scores get closer to 0.

That is why revive is bad. If you lose an important fight at any point in the game, and on any point on the map, you deserve to be punished for it ( On SR people can go for towers, dragon, baron etc, on DOM that should translate to a tower cap). The victor should reap the benefits of said fight, which might be the objective, map control etc.

Revive prevents this from happening, by allowing the team that lost that fight (for whatever reason, whether it was their fault or someone lagged out or they just got outplayed - it doesn't matter) to effectively erase that mistake and come flooding back (in force) to either set the scales back at 0 (if the point is neutral) or maintain their advantage (if the point is theirs) even thought they DON'T deserve it. (because they lost the fight)

You come back with the same answer of "both teams have access to it" which is no excuse for it's existence, why should it be mandatory for this to occur in the game?. Nobody should have access to it, as it would make death have more meaning and impact.

Team A loses windmill to Team B.
Team A blows revive and returns to windmill to pick off the injured Team B.
Team B blows revive to return to windmill to engage Team A AGAIN (who by this time either have the tower or all of Team B's important champion spells are on CD putting them at a severe disadvantage because of 1 stupid summoner spell).
This time, Team A wins (because of revive, and only because of revive), Team B is now dead for 15 secs and has lost map control.

In what universe is that even remotely fair? If you lose a fight, you deserve to be punished for it. Revive is basically a do-over button.

Revive lets you erase this bad fight and retain your position even though you don't deserve it, because all you did was hit 1 button to undo a bad fight, that was your fault for not winning in the first place.


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Panzerzs

Senior Member

12-31-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptnBuwberry View Post
There's actually strategy for using revive, the -2/+2 revive timers have no strategy. Should work on that **** first. just because it's 30-25 nexus health doesn't mean the 25 nexus health team "Deserves" a better revive timer.
^ Really key point to look into, especially when revive timers already screw you over. Hopefully if the points both go under 100 or something, the timers can remain neutral, or if the points differ by 20 or less and are both under 100 nexus points

-A big thing I see from experienced play from my friends and randoms is the fact that WE forget to check tab. We often get a sneak kill in the jungle and then rush a 4 v 3 top or something. Little do we know, if no one checks "tab" for the instant revive, that can really screw you over since you often get over-confident on a 3 v 4 top fight.

-Like, that's why saying revive inc is key as well, you have to do several things at once to really know how fast this mode goes (check tab while capping, check for who's missing while fighting etc)

-One issue is probably the fact that (What buw said as well) the enemy team gets a revive timer favour just because your leading 30-25 or something which is stupid; and with the revive as well to combine with that, if a team knows when to use it, it really frustrates you.


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konfetarius

Senior Member

12-31-2012

Quote:
In what universe is that even remotely fair? If you lose a fight, you deserve to be punished for it. Revive is basically a do-over button.
What is this bile fascination with pretending that the team that used revive first magically regains perfect map control and wipes out the the remnants of the initially winning team with no cost?

Let me put it as simple as possible to you:

When you die needlessly, and blow revive, the impact is that you now have no revive and they still do. If you spend any cooldowns and health during your attempt to clean up after reviving, you will be at the disadvantage when they revive themselves. In the chain of Team A wins, Team B revives and wins, Team A revives and wins, Team A kind of wins. It takes a rather very contrived set of circumstances for team B to actually come out ahead in this exchange.


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