What Makes a Jungler a Jungler to Riot?

First Riot Post
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Pkº

Senior Member

12-30-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by CertainlyT View Post
This is a very good point. I'd contend that on-hit Lulu is still viable outside of the LAN setting. Malady really helps her.

It's unfortunate that these two champions have kits which make balancing them as solo laners a real challenge. However, when AP Lulu and Soraka can lane effectively, they pretty much ruin the experience of whoever they are fighting.
No, she is no longer viable as on-hit. Her whole on-hit build centered around the power boost she got after she gets madreds, which was removed. Lulu top was always a risky pick as well since it focuses on lane dominance, which you need to do very well in since she transitions A LOT worse than other top laners. Now the pick is very lackluster. As a player that enjoyed ap lulu and soraka, and played them at a high level, i can fully say that the first nerf to them was diserved. However, the second nerf was not and utterly destroyed their chances at being a solo laner. The 2nd Q nerf to lulu, and the E nerf to raka were not even needed. I guess the logic is to eradicate any support in a solo lane so they arent close to viable. Ap lulu is at the point where its a troll pick in high elo korean soloq. As an ap lulu main its just sad to see her nerfed into unviability.


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Mr M0nday

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Senior Member

12-30-2012

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Originally Posted by Crowcide View Post
I have never seen a lane Nocture at high level play. I haven't seen a lane WW at high level play in years. Seems like a pretty unfounded statement.

Omg wow you got the burned so hard.


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Undtoromeso

Senior Member

12-30-2012

I didn't play Nami, but I like how Vi was designed. In terms of her kit, she's got numbers and stuff that are tweakable on so many axes. Instead of just buff this nerf that, there's an open-endedness to her even in pure number tweaks that you don't see on a lot of champs. GJ design team, GJ decent jungler champ.


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KesslerCOIL

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Senior Member

12-30-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by CertainlyT View Post
The question isn't what top lane champion cannot jungle it is what top lane champion can only go top. Garen is pretty good in duo kill lanes, for example. I'm pretty sure Renekton can do some nasty things in midlane. He has great wave clear, can roam from some interesting angles, let's the jungler take multiple blues and supports ganks very well.

As to the jungle specifically, Garen's recent mini re-work made it an explicit goal to give him jungle viability. Renekton, I hear you on, he's not incapable of jungling, but the fury system is inherently difficult to make work when ganking.

Regardless, I don't think it was ever a goal of these champions' designers to exclude them from other game roles. In fact, when Garen was made, there wasn't even a "top lane" as we now think of it.
I call bs on garen being able to jungle.
His passive is popped on monsters so loses all sustain and the Cooldown is JUST long enough that it wont come back till he just reaches another camp.

EDIT: changed my mind, the first clear is hard but after that garen just snowballs and the spirit of golem item is amazing for him.


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Sturmhard

Senior Member

12-30-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by CertainlyT View Post
Yes, I know the live team is not happy with Udyr's state. Season 3 was not kind to him, and slow resistance has not proven as helpful as anticipated. We are fortunate to have access to two live deisgners who play Udy at a near professional level -- jungle and top respectively -- so I am very confident in their ability to put him in a good spot. That being said, Udyr is hard to balance because he is *extremely* team dependent. Given the right opponents and the right teammates, he completely takes over the mid game. I believe the Nami champion spotlight shows a pure terror Udyr dominating a game on a team with the CC to support him and an enemy team lacking in lock down.
wow, thx for the answer.

it makes me glad to hear that the live team appreciate that udyr has problems
try playing udyr against darius top . it can be hilarious.....


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Scarizard

Live Balance Designer

12-30-2012
18 of 20 Riot Posts

I think something that makes a champion successful in the jungle is how much that champion values - and can thrive - being in Fog of War. In Rengar's development, we knew that he didn't have a competitive clear time, but he also didn't need it - his lane-ganking (with Thrill of the Hunt) or just basic sidelane ganks utilizing his passive along with Empowered Bola Strike made him incredibly strong there.

Kha'Zix, Elise, Diana, and Vi as well all had a significant number of jungle tests - even if we didn't expect that position to be their primary/popular roles, they are all champions that have strong dueling/cc and prefer to get the jump on the opponent.

Zed is a champion where i'm probably the most happy with how his jungling turned out - CertainlyT and i got to work very closely on Zed, and at the time he was a poor jungler at best. He was functioning as a solo laner just fine, mind you, but when he was only a laner (and balanced to be one) he was incredibly frustrating...on demand slow (at the time it wasn't tied to mimicked shadow slash) and potent ranged poke + super escape made laning against a Zed so frustrating some of us didn't even want to participate in playtests. However, opening him up to play in the jungle allowed us to not only drain some of the strengths of his laning, but also increase his mobility/trickiness across the board - the Zed player was casting W more often and jumping over jungle walls, and the opponents had specific windows of time they would be expecting him within the laning phase, which ended up just being more fun across the board.

Of the champions i've mentioned, i think their jungles are quite potent - but almost all of them have to skill/build/play differently to account for their new role. Elise forgoes a sustained damage build and prioritizes raw damage and approaches with rappel to hit-confirm a cocoon into instant-kill. Vi, Zed, and Rengar will all stalk opponents from shaco-esque angles of approach.

tl;dr IMO, the more a champion can make use of burst damage/mobility from the jungle, the more potent that champion can be played there, whereas heroes like Garen/Darius who favor accruing advantage over time and attrition-based combat don't get to exercise the full extent of their strengths. I believe junglers are less 'Can this person jungle?' and more 'Why do you want to jungle them?'


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BestBilbo

Senior Member

12-30-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by CertainlyT View Post
Itemsguy -..............
Dude, I would really appreciate it if you could actually dig through this thread and respond to the reponses he continued to give on your argument.

The man made a point - yes his posts are rather large but they probably provide such solid points every League player would want to know an answer on the arguments he is making.

It's a very sensitivem topic (as people at Riot have been working on designs for countless of hours) and can't just be taken light-heartedly, therefore ItemsGuy takes the time and words to prove his point, but please for the love of god come back at him.

Please man. I bet everyone would like the discussion you could have going on.

EDIT: @Scarizard - perhaps you could check out the lad's post aswell.


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Skaarrjj

Senior Member

12-30-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
I think something that makes a champion successful in the jungle is how much that champion values - and can thrive - being in Fog of War. In Rengar's development, we knew that he didn't have a competitive clear time, but he also didn't need it - his lane-ganking (with Thrill of the Hunt) or just basic sidelane ganks utilizing his passive along with Empowered Bola Strike made him incredibly strong there.

Kha'Zix, Elise, Diana, and Vi as well all had a significant number of jungle tests - even if we didn't expect that position to be their primary/popular roles, they are all champions that have strong dueling/cc and prefer to get the jump on the opponent.

Zed is a champion where i'm probably the most happy with how his jungling turned out - CertainlyT and i got to work very closely on Zed, and at the time he was a poor jungler at best. He was functioning as a solo laner just fine, mind you, but when he was only a laner (and balanced to be one) he was incredibly frustrating...on demand slow (at the time it wasn't tied to mimicked shadow slash) and potent ranged poke + super escape made laning against a Zed so frustrating some of us didn't even want to participate in playtests. However, opening him up to play in the jungle allowed us to not only drain some of the strengths of his laning, but also increase his mobility/trickiness across the board - the Zed player was casting W more often and jumping over jungle walls, and the opponents had specific windows of time they would be expecting him within the laning phase, which ended up just being more fun across the board.

Of the champions i've mentioned, i think their jungles are quite potent - but almost all of them have to skill/build/play differently to account for their new role. Elise forgoes a sustained damage build and prioritizes raw damage and approaches with rappel to hit-confirm a cocoon into instant-kill. Vi, Zed, and Rengar will all stalk opponents from shaco-esque angles of approach.

tl;dr IMO, the more a champion can make use of burst damage/mobility from the jungle, the more potent that champion can be played there, whereas heroes like Garen/Darius who favor accruing advantage over time and attrition-based combat don't get to exercise the full extent of their strengths. I believe junglers are less 'Can this person jungle?' and more 'Why do you want to jungle them?'
But Zed really can't make use of Overlapping Slow from his shadow much because you have to put your shadow in an extremely disadvantageous spot do it it from. Normally, the shadow is used as your gapcloser so you can get within ult range. But if it's not you'll hardly catch anyone. It was possible before when Zed's E had the same radius of Katarina's W, but you obliterated the radius of Zed's E for reasons unexplained.

Not only that, but the only time his shadow actually does damage is from his Q or if only his shadow hits with his E. It often feels like you can't really use your shadow the way you'd want to because its more valueble as an escape isntead of something to utilize with your attacks.

So you're forced to wait on your ult in order to do anything important. And ultimate that doesn't get very good until rank 3.


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Cyraknoss

Senior Member

12-30-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by lagNZ View Post
I call bs on garen being able to jungle.
His passive is popped on monsters so loses all sustain and the Cooldown is JUST long enough that it wont come back till he just reaches another camp.
He can't, he was able to in S2 but he's absolutely terrible in S3. He requires a smiteless start just to be able to get both buffs without dying, even then he'll have to back as soon as 2nd buff camp is down. This result is independent of skill order, going machete vs armor, or which camp you start. he just can't jungle effectively anymore.


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KesslerCOIL

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Senior Member

12-30-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyraknoss View Post
He can't, he was able to in S2 but he's absolutely terrible in S3. He requires a smiteless start just to be able to get both buffs without dying, even then he'll have to back as soon as 2nd buff camp is down. This result is independent of skill order, going machete vs armor, or which camp you start. he just can't jungle effectively anymore.
I just tried a custom game with him.
I got both buffs and all camps(wraiths twice) and left the jungle with 1/3 of my health left, i had to recall but that was the aim of the new jungle, risk ganking on low health after first clear or recall, clear again and then gank.