What Makes a Jungler a Jungler to Riot?

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Sinspurch

Senior Member

12-30-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by CertainlyT View Post
I have. They are very good.
I can vowge for that! Ive been jungling Sejuani and she has awesome ganks.


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Hidden Sanity

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12-30-2012

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Originally Posted by Vanra View Post
Well when I tried it with Nautilus I couldn't even kill the blue buff at level 2, so clearly I must be doing something horribly wrong.
O.O...

When I clear as Naut I usually have near full HP left after a clear. Heck, I had horrible lag the other day and completely messed up my first two camps before the lag cleared up and I was STILL pretty healthy. 9/21/0 picking up magic Pen and all the usual jungle goodies in defence. Runes had Attack speed reds, armour yellows, move speed quints and scaling MR blues mixed with a few ability power blues for an experiment I'm doing. I started with my shield first, and use my shield at 1:35 before wolves spawn so it's back up for blue.

Naturally, look for a gank at level 3 and scale Q if there's a decent opening. Don't be afraid to flash in and apply your passive and save your Q for their flash.


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AlexDnD2

Senior Member

12-30-2012

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Originally Posted by PsykeSC View Post
That's where you'd be wrong. That's the mentality that the s2 jungle meta brought.
There used to be three types of junglers.
The ganking jungler, who focused on ganking often and gaining advantages for it's teams lanes(ie Lee Sin);
The farming jungler, who kept on farming until team fights begun and tear it up, essentially having a second carry (ie Master Yi);
And the control jungler. This jungler focused on gaining control of jungle objectives, and messing up the other junglers' farming and ganking paths (ie Nunu).

Those brought many different objectives for different junglers and made the jungle much more diversified than S2. Don't shove an old meta up our throats. The jungle's changed a lot for a reason.
And the 2nd type of jungle is toxic to the game. NO ONE should be able to only farm neutral minions in a utter lack of skill and still be dominant.


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BeastsCreature

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Senior Member

12-30-2012

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Originally Posted by CertainlyT View Post
Hecarim, Nautilus, Sejuani, Shyvana all belie your statement.

As to making champions "for the jungle", I am not sure why a designer would even accept that as a goal. Champions that can function in multiple game roles are healthier champions, since more people can access them and explore their abilities in a variety of contexts.
If you think that it's healthier for champions to play multiple game roles, then why did you nerf AP Lulu?


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Hidden Sanity

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12-30-2012

Well.. Control junglers directly counter farming junglers by wrecking their jungle and any sort of decent amount of invades and counting can set the farming jungler behind(Unless his team is better at protecting than your team is at invading, then you just got outskilled, sooo..) Ward the farmers jungle, steal his buffs...


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ItemsGuy

Senior Member

12-30-2012

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Originally Posted by Metalgolem View Post
Like I said earlier, Voyboy has actually been playing Amumu top lately, it seemed to work rather well.
I'm not saying X doesn't work, but rather that X doesn't provide as much to the team as Y does.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CertainlyT View Post
I didn't quote your entire post because it is rather long.

Flexibility is important in my opinion because champions that are designed solely to fill one specific role in the game may end up looking silly as the game evolves. It is important to remember that the most common current team composition in LoL is not the only possibility and that in a year, it very well might be replaced by a completely different setup.
Ah, this is probably just me thinking with the current metagame in mind--although I don't think it's a bad foundation to balance design and uh, balance around, because it allows for a full array of roles (I'm not sure what's going on with the whole "everyone is bruisers" metagame that, according to GD, is resurfacing again--but a healthy metagame is one that isn't ruled by any one role, damage type, champion--ie. the bruiser, AoE ult, and Jax metagames). Ideally, having a support, carry, mage, bruiser, tank, and assassin (with some overlap, of course, like Kassadin being both a mage and an assassin, or some leeway in that you could either invest a slot in X or Y, with benefits and drawbacks coming with both--like opting for an assassin over a bruiser), and gives everybody what they want:

Top lane melee champions (usually bruisers, but sometimes tanks) get the solo lane experience they need to not be outshone in terms of threat by the carry they're trying to divert attention from, while being presented with a 1v1 scenario (due to a jungler being a valuable asset to a team, and bot lane needing two champions for dragon control, which is also valuable) instead of being kited and zoned by a support/carry combo. They can use their durability to deal with jungle ganks, since they don't have a support to peel for them (and often have to ward themselves, which sometimes involves leaving lane to purchase more which has immediate drawbacks).

Mid lane mages and assassins get solo lane experience since they scale harder off of level (and would thus be crippled in a duo lane) and are provided with the ganking opportunities they need--taking advantage of their stronger mid-game power to contribute to the side lanes (particularly important for assassins, since they tend to rely on kills over cs because kills actively allow them to hold their enemies' heads underwater while pushing themselves forward). Mages in particular have ready access to blue buff, which would be much more inconvenient in any other lane, and since both mages and assassins tend to be squishy, mid-lane's composition allows them to be at less immediate risk of ganks than top (who either has more bulk or an escape mechanic of some sort, unless you're Darius) and bot (who has a support to ward while not losing out on anything--and on some supports, peel).

Bot-lane supports, scale poorly and don't snowball noticeably, but their utility means they don't have to--they reach optimal effectiveness with far fewer gold than other roles, since their usefulness stems primarily from non-scaling factors (stuns, slows, buffs, etc.) and their abilities tend to have stronger base values but weaker scaling. Their overall lack of damage, however, is balanced out by...

Bot-lane carries, who can farm with relative safety--due to their support, who gives them the hand-up they need to reach their late-game effectiveness. They don't need solo-lane experience but benefit greatly from solo-lane farm, and tend to lack utility--which their support buddy more than makes up for. It's a beautiful symbiosis, really.

Junglers tend to be champions who can have trouble in-lane (Amumu's lack of sustain, reliable harass, and gold -> effectiveness ratio--he's more useful to his team though constant crowd control and powerful initiation than pure damage, which other champions that are devoted to it can do better; his damage serves as a reason to attack him--as Amumu, you want people to attack you--as opposed to something he devotes himself to), and benefit greatly from the constant MIA status that jungle brings. Skarner's ganking power wouldn't be nearly as potent if opponents were warned of it with his sudden absence from lane. They usually come with powerful creep-clearing abilities that are actually detrimental in-lane, and can do more with less--allowing an equally powerful champion that can jungle but benefits more from what one of the lanes has to offer, to get what they need to become optimal as soon as possible.

If there's any sort of "metagame" to design around, it's this--and the sooner a metagame to design around is settled upon, the better, because it provides for a firm foundation for designers and players alike. Say, a new player finds the game and is already provided with a basic structure to work within--they'll learn the game much more quickly and will have access to "fun" much more readily, as opposed to being surprised every game and trying to build an understanding on shaky and inconsistent principles (building a castle on sand, if you would).

Quote:
Designing to a particular metagame can leave a design feeling awkward when the metagame evolves. Consider Rammus. A Rammus that is ahead is capable of completely taking over games. His tower diving power is incredible and he offers the longest duration hard CC in the game. When Rammus is allowed to play his game, he's amazing.

Unfortunately for Rammus, extremely fast clearing junglers with strong counter-jungling potential became dominant for much of season 2 -- exactly the kind of people Rammus didn't want to see on the opposing team. Since Rammus is not really viable outside of the jungle (his bread and butter kit centers around enemies standing next to and attacking him for long periods of time), this left Rammus without much of a place and he has languished in obscurity for quite some time.
I think this is more due to an archaic design, if anything (which is understandable--he's one of the oldest champions). There are other champions that both fill his roles and can perform them better (Malphite, for example, being able to jungle and tank--with stronger and more reliable initiation, more less; he outshines Rammus because Rammus's kit doesn't revolve around doing his thing, and it's a bit obscure in terms of readability of his ult and taunt--the taunt of course being a bit archaic itself, since the focus of his kit was punishing attackers but the problem of "how do we make enemies attack him" was solved with a non-sequitur taunt instead of giving him enemies a reason to attack him). He essentially has "tools Rammus has" instead of "a thing Rammus does" and when those tools are pitted against the tools of others, in context of each other, they lose out when placed outside of their very narrow situational effectiveness. Making Rammus do what he does better without taking away what he is or why players would pick him over a different tank would require a more up-to-date take on his design.

Quote:
[Fortunately, Season 3 has given Rammus a new lease on life -- He's quite strong right now -- try him!]
You know what? I actually might, complaints about thematic/kit coherency aside. He was the first champion I ever bought--I knew I wanted him as soon as I saw him, and played him straight through 12 levels.

Quote:
Now consider Zyra. Zyra is a fragile, low mobility mage with strong CC and high team utility. She is vulnerable to high mobility assassins and strong against low mobility opponents, who she can hit with her skillshots and trap in a thicket of plants. Unfortunately for Zyra, mid has become a playground for assassins: Diana, Eve, Talon, Lee Sin, etc and some of the most commonly seen picks in mid these days. If that were the end of the story, Zyra would be without a home. Fortunately, since her kit is robust, she can also be played in other roles. Now, she's seen more often as a support than as a mid.
To be honest, I think Zyra (a mage, first and foremost) being pushed out of mid shouldn't be a "well, let's leave it at that" thing--if assassins are ultimately becoming a more optimal pick for mid than mages are, then that's chasing mages in general out of their home. Remember how I talked about "metagames shouldn't be ruled by any one role or damage type"? That seems to be the case here. Perhaps the next step in balance should be more about giving teams a reason to either pick a mage or assassin for mid (instead of the linear rock-paper-scissors of mage-assassin-bruiser, wherein assassins beat mages but bruisers beat assassins, and in many cases, mages as well), with defined benefits and drawbacks for each? Back in season 2, assassins were more of a counter-pick for popular (squishy) mages, and a high-risk/high-reward gambit in general, while mages were a more reliable pick and weren't shut down as easily, but in turn couldn't shut down their opponent as hard--in my experience of play and observing tournaments, anyway. (Also, as an added note, I think one of the fundamental problems in Zyra's design is that her plants are almost more of an afterthought than the main selling point of her kit--she's not all about growing plants, she's about throwing in plants for a bit of extra damage. She's valued more for her AoE crowd control and damage than contributing to her team through plants. Heimerdinger faces the same problem, wherein his turrets will never be satisfying or balanced as long as he is more mage than Revered Inventor, since the existence of his ranged nukes/disable will always offset the existence of his turret. In a way, he's forced to compete on the same footing as other mages--being valued on how well he can do what they do, which will never be up-to-par without becoming wonky and hard-to-balance because he still has both territorial turrets and ranged nukes. A lot of what I'm talking about can be found in this thread, and if you could spare a few minutes to give it a look-over, I'd greatly appreciate it.)

Anyway, sorry if I'm missing the point or don't have the understanding that comes with actually designing for LoL (for the time being), this is just my take on things. Do you think the metagame I talk about would be the best foundation for balance and design within the context of LoL? Like a young couple, LoL and its playerbase are going to have to eventually settle down, and I think the composition I mentioned would be perfect for that for reasons I've also mentioned.


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ItemsGuy

Senior Member

12-30-2012

(Sorry if my posts are so long, by the way--I don't expect anyone aside from CertainlyT to read them anyway, so if you're not him I wouldn't worry too much about them)


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CertainlyT

Champion Designer

12-30-2012
14 of 20 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fomorian27 View Post
Does this give a clue as to what changes you might make to darius in the future? Surely if they're mistakes you won't just leave them in the game?
Potentially. It's unclear what should be done to Darius. He's balanced, has clear strengths and weaknesses, and is much less matchup dependent than the average forum post would have you believe. Even if we remedied some of the specific complaints about him now, any bruiser that does not lean heavily on raw statistical bonuses to be successful will often generate a lot of frustration from their opponents. Raw stats tend to play out almost unnoticeably over time whereas abilities manifest their power in dramatically noticeable moments. Take Jarvan's Demacian Standard -- it's primary power is in the armor/AS boost it gives, but a good number of players don't even notice it exists.

I would say that, in the case of changing Darius' bleed damage to physical, be careful what you wish for, you might not like it.


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universe within

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Senior Member

12-30-2012

Nautilus cannot do anything except jungle, and he even sucks at jungling.


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N49

Senior Member

12-30-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by CertainlyT View Post
I would say that, in the case of changing Darius' bleed damage to physical, be careful what you wish for, you might not like it.
A word about Darius' bleed.

Make his ult consume the stacks. Seriously, nothing is more ****ing annoying than being killed by a DoT that's primarily there to empower an ability, rather than the ability it empowers.