What Makes a Jungler a Jungler to Riot?

First Riot Post
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CertainlyT

Champion Designer

12-30-2012
10 of 20 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Submohr View Post
I'm pretty sure Xypherous has argued on the forums before that having multiple viable roles for a champion isn't ideal for reasons including it can confuse your own team if they have certain expectations of what you'll do (team expects you to be ad kog/trist, you go ap, is the example). I don't quite remember the exact wording, it was quite a while ago.
The issue of AP versus AD is about whether you will focus on magic or physical damage, not what space within the game you intend to occupy.

As to Riven being a champion that is only viable top lane and no where else, I would just say that I strongly disagree with these sort of design goals. Creating champions for specific reasons leads to a lot of stuff we later regret -- in Riven's case, her inordinately high base HP regen and her incredibly low ultimate cooldown.

In Darius' case, I regret including an attack speed slow on Crippling Strike and making Hemorhage damage type magic. I did these things as last minute reactions to concerns from our live designers about his viability (at the time, Draven would just 1v1 him even in the rare case that Darius could get to Draven and Darius was considered hard countered by cloth+5pot starts). I should have just designed him in a way that was logical and let our player base figure out where and how to best use him.


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PsykeSC

Senior Member

12-30-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexDnD2 View Post
Because jungle job is to gank not afk farm for 20 minutes.
That's where you'd be wrong. That's the mentality that the s2 jungle meta brought.
There used to be three types of junglers.
The ganking jungler, who focused on ganking often and gaining advantages for it's teams lanes(ie Lee Sin);
The farming jungler, who kept on farming until team fights begun and tear it up, essentially having a second carry (ie Master Yi);
And the control jungler. This jungler focused on gaining control of jungle objectives, and messing up the other junglers' farming and ganking paths (ie Nunu).

Those brought many different objectives for different junglers and made the jungle much more diversified than S2. Don't shove an old meta up our throats. The jungle's changed a lot for a reason.


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Crowcide

Senior Member

12-30-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by CertainlyT View Post
Two teams ran Nocturne mid this month at the OGN winter championships.
Didn't watch OGN, but when is the last time you saw WW in any high level play? Seems champs that are viable in multiple lanes tend to get nerfed out of one far more often then they are designed to do multiple role.

Zyra, Lulu, Soraka, Rengar, Alistra, Amumu, Kayle, Nid, GP, Kog, Shaco all come to mind as champions that used to have multiple build types or the ability to function in lanes other than were intended - each case was met with nerfs to the off specs.


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Xyltin

Senior Member

12-30-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Metalgolem View Post
Lately Riot has been sticking most of their new champions in the jungle (Vi, Elise, Zed) but none of them are really made for the jungle. I think the last champion that was actually made to go into the jungle and not a lane was Skarner; and since him, every "jungler" Riot has released has been simply tossed into top or mid lane because they are more useful there (Rengar, Diana, Kha'zix). Is Riot just missing the mark on trying to make a viable jungler or are they simply trying to give junglers more options?
Zed is pretty good in the jungle. Asians don't play him there cause he is ****.
Vi is actually better in the jungle than in the lane. When her bugs are getting fixed, she will have deadly ganks and a good clear speed.
K'Z and Rengar (after buffs) are both top laners, but they are also strong in the jungle.
Diana, after the next buff, could be actually better in the jungle than in the mid lane.


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Teemo Support GG

Senior Member

12-30-2012

They said with jungle remake they wanted to open doors for amount of champs that could jungle...but...yeah
Jungle Leona has gone from molasses to impossible
Irelia gets melted
Kayle gets destroyed
Pantheon...lulz
Wukong..etc...etc...


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CragBlade

Senior Member

12-30-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by CertainlyT View Post
In Darius' case, I regret including an attack speed slow on Crippling Strike and making Hemorhage damage type magic. I did these things as last minute reactions to concerns from our live designers about his viability (at the time, Draven would just 1v1 him even in the rare case that Darius could get to Draven and Darius was considered hard countered by cloth+5pot starts). I should have just designed him in a way that was logical and let our player base figure out where and how to best use him.
I think him having both natural armor penetration + true damage + magic damage makes him scary to face. I imagine the AS slow being removed and his passive dealing physical damage would make him much easier to face.


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SavagePrisonerSP

Member

12-30-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by CertainlyT View Post
The issue of AP versus AD is about whether you will focus on magic or physical damage, not what space within the game you intend to occupy.

As to Riven being a champion that is only viable top lane and no where else, I would just say that I strongly disagree with these sort of design goals. Creating champions for specific reasons leads to a lot of stuff we later regret -- in Riven's case, her inordinately high base HP regen and her incredibly low ultimate cooldown.

In Darius' case, I regret including an attack speed slow on Crippling Strike and making Hemorhage damage type magic. I did these things as last minute reactions to concerns from our live designers about his viability (at the time, Draven would just 1v1 him even in the rare case that Darius could get to Draven and Darius was considered hard countered by cloth+5pot starts). I should have just designed him in a way that was logical and let our player base figure out where and how to best use him.
So YOU are the guy that made Darius? We will never be friends.


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CLG HotdogGG

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Senior Member

12-30-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by CertainlyT View Post
The issue of AP versus AD is about whether you will focus on magic or physical damage, not what space within the game you intend to occupy.

As to Riven being a champion that is only viable top lane and no where else, I would just say that I strongly disagree with these sort of design goals. Creating champions for specific reasons leads to a lot of stuff we later regret -- in Riven's case, her inordinately high base HP regen and her incredibly low ultimate cooldown.

In Darius' case, I regret including an attack speed slow on Crippling Strike and making Hemorhage damage type magic. I did these things as last minute reactions to concerns from our live designers about his viability (at the time, Draven would just 1v1 him even in the rare case that Darius could get to Draven and Darius was considered hard countered by cloth+5pot starts). I should have just designed him in a way that was logical and let our player base figure out where and how to best use him.
...Cus it's not like he gets free % Armor Pen in his kit or anything...Or that over half his damage is True Damage...Wtf...


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Treeke

Senior Member

12-30-2012

CertainlyTrueDamage guy.....

What about rammus?


Outside of the jungle he isn't very good. In fact, in the jungle he is decentish.

Yet you guys haven't done anything. He got buffed with a little bit of armor early, but other than that, he has the same problemd


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Fashbinder

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Senior Member

12-30-2012

Renekton jungles amazingly well with machete. His gap closer stun with fury from jungle camps on a lane is INTENSE. Still falls off later like any laner, but man oh man does he get kills when ganking