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Kwatie

Junior Member

12-30-2012

Hey Ezreal
Was browsing the Champion Concepts forum earlier and I saw a post that I found somewhat interesting. It was concerning champs using a stance play-style, similar to Udyr or Sona, where after an ability has been activated, the champion would be affected by a persistent effect. I really enjoy this idea and love the variety it brings into the game, and I'm wondering if you guys might use it more in the future?

Another thing I would like to see is the return of somewhat archetypal Champions. Don't get me wrong I love the unique taste of every champion you guys make, but I would also love to see things like the old fashioned Sword/Shield knight, like a General from one of the City State's army coming to compete. Not a very strong or appealing thought, I know, just thought i'd put it forward

Also, thanks for doing this, you're awesome.


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Raptearer

Recruiter

12-30-2012

Have you guys ever thought about doing a sand based champion? Like one whose abilities could be summoning quicksand to root or slow enemies, or summoning a sandstorm to reduce enemy vision (like graves smokescreen) and/or does damage, maybe with an ult that causes a mirage or has an ability to turn himself into a pile of sand to avoid damage (like vlad with his blood pool)? I think the concept is really interesting, and would make for a pretty cool support.


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NotBuzzJack

Senior Member

12-30-2012

I have this ult idea for a lightning/storm/electric themed assassin, and I want to know what you think of it.

Summons storm clouds in an area for a duration, during this time the champ can instantly blink to anywhere within the area via a bolt of lightning. However you are limited in the number of lightning strikes, when you are out of charges the skies clear.

Traveling via lightning just sounds cool. Originally my idea for such an ability was a near global range instant teleport, but that sounded like it would be really frustrating to deal with, even if I did find a way to balance it.


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NotBuzzJack

Senior Member

12-30-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by CCC Powerhead View Post
You got new ideas for udyr? i mean his kit is so old, today i was playing a ranked and it was very demoralizing try to chase someone, every new champion have leaps, blink, and jumps, and i was there trying to do something ... but well eating slows and hard poke...

PD: sorry bad english.
Your english is fine.


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Ordosan

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Senior Member

12-30-2012

I have yet to ask why people want urgot to be remade? I find him to be an amazing Bruiser/Tank. He has an armor shred dot, his passive reduces dmg,and his shield slows and his ult catches loose squishies and makes him talkier. ( and people always focus you cuz they think your an adc and not a tank)


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CCC Powerhead

Senior Member

12-30-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by NotBuzzJack View Post
Your english is fine.
Ok thanks .


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Warrikon

Senior Member

12-30-2012

Thoughts on ap kog in season 3?


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Critkeeper

Senior Member

12-30-2012

Hey ez, can you pass along a message to the live balance team to see if they consider this a decent idea?

Buff the passive fury generation but remove the bonus fury generation on critical strikes and make Tryndamere's heal on bloodlust scale with health missing rather than fury.

THE PROBLEM

Tryndamere shares alot of problems with nasus, and to a lesser extent vladmir. This is not a thread
expounding the weaknesses of melee carries; instead, this thread tries to address some underlying issues
in design that hold certain champions back, especially Tryndamere. The problems addressed in this post
relevant to Tryndamere are mostly unrelated to the problems he shares with other melee carries in being a
melee glass cannon. The problems that will be analyzed in this post specifically concern his ability to
lane without tending to extremes, either obliterating his opponent or being absolutely destroyed, not his
ability to carry.





Consider the design intentions of Tryndamere's bloodlust and fury system. The heal is there to allow
Tryndamere to stay in lane even under moderate harassment, and the fact it has a base value suggests that
spamming it when losing your lane is supposed to be a means to bounce back. The fury is supposed to reward
Tryndamere for pushing his lane with a temporary boost in damage, allowing him to zone his opponent and
reward him with a more powerful heal for taking the inherent risk of building it from empty inside his
opponent's zone of control.

In practice however, the heal is most powerful when Tryndamere is already winning his lane, zoning his
opponent and building large amounts of uncontested fury. Tryndamere ability to heal for large amounts when
consuming large amounts of fury presents a balance issue because it is a limiter on the amount by which he
can heal when at zero fury. There is considerable back lash from the community for nerfing the per fury
portion of the heal in favor of buffing the flat value, because doing so while keeping the power level of
bloodlust the same means reducing the total value of the heal at full fury. People do not want for the
total value of bloodlust heal with fury to be nerfed because it can be used after Undying Rage to survive.

The fury system will provide Tryndamere with the ability to do damage unreliably. The damage from critical
strikes can only be relied on over a span of trades, rather than a single engagement. This makes
Tryndamere very reliant on staying in lane and losing some trades in order to win others. Merely losing a
trade causes Tryndamere increase his damage through the passive on bloodlust, although the damage increase
is minute compared to the damage increase he experiences when at full fury. Furthermore the ease at which
fury can be built scales with how much fury he already has, meaning that building fury from empty is
considerably more difficult that maintaining it when at full.






Bad synergy is basically synergy that exists to work for a champion who is winning, and against that same champion when he is losing. It essentially makes the champion snowbally, towards dominating or towards being dominated. Bady synergy can also present a balance problem, making it difficult to fix through simple number changes without breaking the champion.


This is a logical progression illuminating the bad synergy in Tryndamere's kit.


Undying Rage gives Tryndamere fury and is used in combat situations.
Consuming fury heals tryndamere more with more fury.
Higher heal per fury is preffered for post Undying Rage.
Lower heal per fury is required in order to buff the base heal.
Higher base heal is preffered for laning.
Tryndamere needs to have a decent laning phase in order to be a threat in Undying Rage later.
He won't survive post Undying Rage later without a Higher heal per fury on bloodlust.

Therefore either he suffers in lane or suffers in combat from a balance perspective.


Not having fury makes it difficult to trade with your opponent in lane.
Not being able to trade with your opponent means being zoned.
Being zoned makes it impossible to build fury.

Having fury means that it is easy to maintain.
If fury is easy to maintain, a span of trades are easy to win.
If a span of trades are easy to win, fury can be consumed to create an even larger health advantage.
Since a larger health advantage exists, you can zone your opponent.
Zoning your opponent, you can build uncontested fury.

Therefore either he wins his lane hard or he loses hard.



Basically then, the preference for keeping the bloodlust heal geared more for combat than for laning, combined with the fact that Tryndamere either wins his lane hard or loses hard, means that Tryndamere will snowball in lane, positively or negatively.

THE FIX

If the desin intention of bloodlust heal was to help him bounce back in lane, then there is no reason for it to scale with fury. It should scale with the amount of health that Tryndamere has missing. It should still consume his fury.

There is no reason for critical strikes to cause fury to build faster, since this is a blantant example of a snowball mechanism, which isn't something that Tryndamere needs. His fury generation should not depend on how much fury he already has; it should simply build faster independent of the amount of fury he has. His fury generation on normal hits and killing blows should be increased and the fury generartion on critical strikes should be removed, at least on critically striking minions.


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Ryceman

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Senior Member

12-30-2012

How many champions down is this male support? You can tell me I won't tell anyone


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Vilosophe

Member

12-30-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezreal View Post
Well, I transitioned from designing individual champions to leading the champion ideation process (initial art/design/theme) some time after releasing Ahri. Recently I have also joined the Creative Design team in coming up with awesome new ways to integrate lore into our game (GIVE ME IDEAS HERE!!!).
Amusingly enough, you already mentioned Kog'maw's daddy.

I recently dropped a few suggestions in this (fairly well received) thread. For brevity's sake, I'll give the short version here, If you want the reasoning or ideas behind it, kindly read the thread but I think the full post is too lengthy for the purpose of your @Ezreal thread.

[Suggestion no.1 was more silliness]

Suggestion no. 2: Add more quotes to Champions. (Champion interaction, idle quotes, or other things such as Skarner's brush-quote)

Suggestion no. 3: create interacting and interactive Lore. (See: Rengar/Kha'zix, Shadow Isles altars, Noxus v Ionia but also the old Katarina or Soraka/Warwick/Singed lore).

Specific to the Lore bit:
Speaking of Lore, you have, over time, created a number of possibilities for new Champions with ties to present Champions. There has been mention of Kog'maw's father or Kassadin's daughter to name but a few. You have created some already (Tristana/Rumble/Teemo being one of the very first). I honestly feel you could do more with this. Quite clearly there's an interest as these keep popping up on the forums regularly. However, it seems like you are actually going the other way. With the rewrites of the Lore, you often go to great lengths to remove references to other champions. I really feel this weakens the universe you are trying to present. This is all we have to infer relations and the way Noxus, Demacia etc. are organised. It is useful for us to know that Katarina went to get Sion. Or that she's dating Garen on the side. Why? Because it makes the world more related and relatable. It gives us a basis for comparison in regard to their powers. Champions do not exist in a vacuum. They don't solely fight in the Proving Grounds. Does Gragas have a drinking buddy in Olaf? We don't know. This is why skins like Sinful Succulence Morgana or Tyrant Swain add so much. This is why lore that has Champions interact with each other adds so much. It allows us to fill in the world beyond Summoner's Rift.

There were Lore Events. Noxus vs Ionia is even referenced in game with an Item. Summoners could decide the outcome of actual Lore. Through playing a game. You have ramped this up a bit with the recent Shadow Isles event, for which I laud you, but I feel you are overlooking a great many opportunities which you already used prior.