S3 Jungle Gold Starvation Still Exists

First Riot Post
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Aloretec

Senior Member

12-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFailBus View Post
If I'm honest I think this is mostly a holdover from old styles of play. Solo queue is very slow to adapt. Most of the time you don't get a choice over whether to donate camps or not in solo. However in my 5's games with friends I've certainly found that donating slightly less camps to others is incredibly beneficial in the long run. Having a jungler who can actually do damage and/or tank things instead of the "second support" that was end of season 2 junglers has worked out well for me.
It's beneficial to the jungler in the long run but hurts mid in the short term. Most solo queue games are decided within the first 20 minutes.

So yes it is more beneficial in a 5 man premade however most games are not 5 man premades.

I believe there has to be a happy balance that hasn't been hit for both solo queue and 5 man premades. If not then Riot created a jungle they can not effectively balance. Right now the jungle is not in a good place. You're either fed or starved.

Does this show the difference between a bad jungler and a good one? Yes, but Riot stated the game got to toxic top from snowballing. Why create the same effect now in the jungle?

Should philo stone be core on every jungler in order to keep up in gold? What do you do about exp? Risk an invade knowing that if you die you may never recover?


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Aloretec

Senior Member

12-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrTerrible123 View Post
There is a fairly simple solution. If a creep is smited then the person that smited it gets the xp and gold for it no matter who kills it. Then you can pass buffs to the lanes without losing the xp and gold. Problem solved....next!
This solved nothing. You hold your smite while passing blue in the event you need to smite blue to prevent the enemy from stealing it. You don't walk up and smite blue then pass it along.


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Dactylogram

Senior Member

12-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by EraserxRain View Post
Mid will never give up wraiths. They will poach them forever now. Hell I have mids taking wraiths and wolves now LOL.
100% Agree, and I"m also mad that now when I am at wraiths during the mid game, the mid laner will casually just steal my big wraith and one red wraith. I type "... wtf man" in response and he responds "i need the cs" THIS NEEDS TO BE ADDRESSED. NO Fking excuses.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EraserxRain View Post
Putting extra gold on double did nothing to help the jungler. If you keep killing them when they spawn yes you're better off in gold. However you're out of position to counter gank, defend from counter jungling, or defend drag from either side of the map. The trade off from camping double is never worth it unless you're ahead enough to have complete map control.

You're forced to camp lanes more now then in s2 because it's your only source of income and exp. In S2 at least if you just afk ran around the jungle with the right route you had a steady small income source. Y

You took out HoG which was a problem top lane I agree, but it was the main income source for junglers as well. There's really nothing to replace it.

All the upgrades from hatchet a side from wriggles and spirit of the golem are terrible choices in any situation. You can buff the AD and AP ratio to death on them and I see no reason to build them over the other two. Their passives do not match the other two. A free ward and tenacity compared to a small amount of true dmg ticks or spell vamp. Most AP junglers also auto attack and it's easier to pick up the wriggles if you're struggling that much to sustain then the expensive hatchet upgrade for the spell vamp.

You nerfed defensive items to the ground. I know it'll get balanced, but most junglers are either tanks or build mostly tanky because it was cheap and effective. Now it's neither.
I completely agree so much. I don't touch double golems at all anymore. You are forced to camp lanes to a much much greater extent and it sickens me. We need an equivalent of HoG because our income is virtually nonexistent. Spirit and wriggles are the only viable buys, and more than usual i'll go for wriggles just so i can clear camps faster so that i can attempt to keep up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFailBus View Post
Translation: I only played season 2 and think that jungling from season 2 was the only jungling that is worthwile or ever existed.

You missed the days of proper counter junglers who didn't gank much but invaded the enemy jungle repeatedly. You missed the days of farm junglers who barely ganked and then joined teamfights to wreck face later if nobody dealt with them in the jungle. The reason junglers are expected to gank and people think that is their primary role is because of the changes at the start of season 2 which forced this as the only successful form of jungling by ruining farm jungles and, due to this, making counter junglers pointless.

Again, don't push the old meta as the only meta.
I agree with this so much. Season 2 meta was where junglers were expected to gank nonstop. Low elo and noobs don't understand that a season 1 meta existed and functioned with much greater diversity. We need that diversity back because S2 was terrible in comparison, and we can all agree S3 is worse than S2 in terms of jungling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Levnik Moore View Post
I think the problem is jungles don't like that if they do not get a kill in their gank they fall behind. This same problem came about in season 2, and never really got fixed. Forcing summoners literally doesn't pay off anymroe, and with the nerf to oracles and the introduction of sightstone bot is very hard to gank, leaving a short mid lane and a fairly closed off top lane.
Very true. If I gank and see them blow flash I"m like "Ok they blew flash......." It doesn't help me very much. It may enable the laner to get a kill later on, but I'm not going to get an assist 30s later which is when the laner sees an opportunity and engages. And because I just failed a gank, I did not collect any income in my primary source of income, and therefore I'm falling behind even further.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riskar View Post
Have you realized yet how badly you've failed with these changes? If you fail to get a kill on your first 2 ganks, you fall so far behind its impossible to ever catch back up.
This sums up the situation basically, and I"m sick and tired of Riot for avoiding this. I swear to god if S3 is worse than the S2 jungle, and if its worse from the very beginning, I"m just ditching this game and headed straight for dota2. I see a ton more potential in that.


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AlexDnD2

Senior Member

12-29-2012

Dactylogram - Jungle is the team's second support. You need to be ganking, warding, oracling, controlling objectives.

Riot does NOT want you to be able to afk farm for 15 minutes and then turn the tide. That's retarded. You aren't playing bots - in order to be a success you actually have to beat a player not a jungle mob.


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Dactylogram

Senior Member

12-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexDnD2 View Post
Dactylogram - Jungle is the team's second support. You need to be ganking, warding, oracling, controlling objectives.

Riot does NOT want you to be able to afk farm for 15 minutes and then turn the tide. That's retarded. You aren't playing bots - in order to be a success you actually have to beat a player not a jungle mob.
No it is not our primary job to oracle and ward. That is a perversion of the jungling role that occurred in season 2. Controlling objectives and ganking has always been there, but when the change from season 1 to season 2 happened, farming and control junglers became UNviable (COMPLETELY Unviable) and it ushered a phase where only ganking junglers could survive. The udyr's, warwicks, fiddles, that you saw in season 2 were rare and focused on ganking mostly because simply "afk farming" as you put it was not enough for gold income.

Just like your last comment which got downvoted, your response proves that you did not play this game during season 1. Watch some stonewall008 videos during that time. Jungling was very very different back then, and the role was ruined in season 2 and even further ruined now in season 3. I feel bad for you newer players because you never got to experience the joy and fun of season 1 jungle. Back then we had actual, true power.


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Aerobrake

Junior Member

12-29-2012

Ok first post on forums here goes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexDnD2 View Post
Opinion:

I think a lot of Jungles dislike dealing with the enemy. They would prefer to afk farm for 15 minutes and then be strong and enter a team fight. They don't want to be forced to gank. They don't want to be forced to go into a lane and fight like a regular champ cus they aren't good at it.

Sorry but jungles? You NEED to gank that is your PRIMARY job.

I read through a lot of the posts so far and I have to disagree with you AlexDnD2. People like Dactylogram and Eraser make a lot of sense to me. I didnt' play in season 1, but I watched this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EtEWv2o0BQ and some others that Dactylogram suggested (from stonewalls channel) and HOLY **** I didn't know junglers were this powerful in the game!! And omg red wraiths giving 12 gold!!!! If this is the jungle that we once had in league that people are talking about, I want it too. And jesus I understand now what counter jungling is. When I played in season 2 i just cleared the camp and respawned, but after seeing that and a couple of other videos I think I kinda understand what people mean when they say counterjungling is dead now.
In S2 all junglers built support because that was the only way to get enough gold, but from the S1 vids I saw.... Just wow. I honestly never knew some of those things were possible

Here is another vid I saw http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NCM5wyfDmA

Dang I want that jungle


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Dactylogram

Senior Member

12-29-2012

Thanks Aero, glad to see that someone agrees with me.
And that jungle jarvan game personally is one of my favorite videos. It just shows how different things were back then.


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Dactylogram

Senior Member

12-29-2012

bump. Riot still hasn't addressed this.


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ValkyrionX

Senior Member

12-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dactylogram View Post
No it is not our primary job to oracle and ward. That is a perversion of the jungling role that occurred in season 2. Controlling objectives and ganking has always been there, but when the change from season 1 to season 2 happened, farming and control junglers became UNviable (COMPLETELY Unviable) and it ushered a phase where only ganking junglers could survive. The udyr's, warwicks, fiddles, that you saw in season 2 were rare and focused on ganking mostly because simply "afk farming" as you put it was not enough for gold income.

Just like your last comment which got downvoted, your response proves that you did not play this game during season 1. Watch some stonewall008 videos during that time. Jungling was very very different back then, and the role was ruined in season 2 and even further ruined now in season 3. I feel bad for you newer players because you never got to experience the joy and fun of season 1 jungle. Back then we had actual, true power.
Well for me AlexDnD2 not only didn't play this game during season 1, but he is a player who always ask (or whinning) for a gank to win his lane.

Anyway somehow the S3 Jungle still not right for me, yeah it's because of the gold starvation, because we don't have enough gold we can't buy item so fast.


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Xemozu

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Senior Member

12-29-2012

After around 300 games I'm completely convinced that the gold and XP rates compared to the difficulty of the minions is bad. Farming jungle and leveling with it is actually slower than before. If anything I feel more pressured now to go gank early, and do it A LOT. If I do that then I counterjungle the enemy, make them feel terribad because they'll actually fall behind. And then just carry with said advantage.
And it's the other way around if I don't pull a lucky gank. I'll fall behind...

So yeah, congratulations, you made early ganking even more crucial than before. Why do you think everyone is starting flask + pots? (besides sustain): wards...

Please fix this.