S3 Jungle Gold Starvation Still Exists

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AlexDnD2

Senior Member

12-29-2012

Opinion:

I think a lot of Jungles dislike dealing with the enemy. They would prefer to afk farm for 15 minutes and then be strong and enter a team fight. They don't want to be forced to gank. They don't want to be forced to go into a lane and fight like a regular champ cus they aren't good at it.

Sorry but jungles? You NEED to gank that is your PRIMARY job.


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TheFailBus

Senior Member

12-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexDnD2 View Post
Opinion:

I think a lot of Jungles dislike dealing with the enemy. They would prefer to afk farm for 15 minutes and then be strong and enter a team fight. They don't want to be forced to gank. They don't want to be forced to go into a lane and fight like a regular champ cus they aren't good at it.

Sorry but jungles? You NEED to gank that is your PRIMARY job.
Translation: I only played season 2 and think that jungling from season 2 was the only jungling that is worthwile or ever existed.

You missed the days of proper counter junglers who didn't gank much but invaded the enemy jungle repeatedly. You missed the days of farm junglers who barely ganked and then joined teamfights to wreck face later if nobody dealt with them in the jungle. The reason junglers are expected to gank and people think that is their primary role is because of the changes at the start of season 2 which forced this as the only successful form of jungling by ruining farm jungles and, due to this, making counter junglers pointless.

Again, don't push the old meta as the only meta.


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Aloretec

Senior Member

12-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFailBus View Post
Division of team resources has always been something to consider. In season one it was pretty much unheard of for mid and bot to take wraiths/golems because the jungler needed his gold.

The only reason it became common was because the rewards were so low and the camp respawns so fast in season 2 it became pointless for the jungler to farm jungle so they focused on ganking.

If that balance has changed again and the optimal way of dividing resources between the team is different that isn't a negative about the new jungle it is just a change in play style.
Yes, but the optimal way is the same as season2 but with less gp10 items for the jungler.

Passing the buffs and camps along to snowball your carries and give them a further lead still makes more sense. The jungler is just more starved now then before. Add on how over powered penetration is


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Levnik Moore

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Senior Member

12-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexDnD2 View Post
Opinion:

I think a lot of Jungles dislike dealing with the enemy. They would prefer to afk farm for 15 minutes and then be strong and enter a team fight. They don't want to be forced to gank. They don't want to be forced to go into a lane and fight like a regular champ cus they aren't good at it.

Sorry but jungles? You NEED to gank that is your PRIMARY job.
I think the problem is jungles don't like that if they do not get a kill in their gank they fall behind. This same problem came about in season 2, and never really got fixed. Forcing summoners literally doesn't pay off anymroe, and with the nerf to oracles and the introduction of sightstone bot is very hard to gank, leaving a short mid lane and a fairly closed off top lane.


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AlexDnD2

Senior Member

12-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFailBus View Post
Translation: I only played season 2 and think that jungling from season 2 was the only jungling that is worthwile or ever existed.

You missed the days of proper counter junglers who didn't gank much but invaded the enemy jungle repeatedly. You missed the days of farm junglers who barely ganked and then joined teamfights to wreck face later if nobody dealt with them in the jungle. The reason junglers are expected to gank and people think that is their primary role is because of the changes at the start of season 2 which forced this as the only successful form of jungling by ruining farm jungles and, due to this, making counter junglers pointless.

Again, don't push the old meta as the only meta.
I'm talking about the mindset of some people. They dislike having to compete against an enemy in the lane or when playing the jungle and ganking. They want afk farm for 15. Then come and do something. Why bother playing PvP go play a bot game if you just want to farm a computer.


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Riskar

Senior Member

12-29-2012

Have you realized yet how badly you've failed with these changes? If you fail to get a kill on your first 2 ganks, you fall so far behind its impossible to ever catch back up.


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Undtoromeso

Senior Member

12-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Levnik Moore View Post
I think the problem is jungles don't like that if they do not get a kill in their gank they fall behind. This same problem came about in season 2, and never really got fixed. Forcing summoners literally doesn't pay off anymroe, and with the nerf to oracles and the introduction of sightstone bot is very hard to gank, leaving a short mid lane and a fairly closed off top lane.
Forcing summoners always pays off, usually in the kill you get 1 minute later, but also in the team advantage over that lane. Unless you're camping a lane and seriously injuring yourself, you can run into most lanes, throw some harass and either kill, force summoners, or force the enemy out of lane temporarily. All of these things are advantages.


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TheFailBus

Senior Member

12-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by EraserxRain View Post
Yes, but the optimal way is the same as season2 but with less gp10 items for the jungler.

Passing the buffs and camps along to snowball your carries and give them a further lead still makes more sense. The jungler is just more starved now then before. Add on how over powered penetration is
If I'm honest I think this is mostly a holdover from old styles of play. Solo queue is very slow to adapt. Most of the time you don't get a choice over whether to donate camps or not in solo. However in my 5's games with friends I've certainly found that donating slightly less camps to others is incredibly beneficial in the long run. Having a jungler who can actually do damage and/or tank things instead of the "second support" that was end of season 2 junglers has worked out well for me.


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Levnik Moore

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Senior Member

12-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Undtoromeso View Post
Forcing summoners always pays off, usually in the kill you get 1 minute later, but also in the team advantage over that lane. Unless you're camping a lane and seriously injuring yourself, you can run into most lanes, throw some harass and either kill, force summoners, or force the enemy out of lane temporarily. All of these things are advantages.
I wasn't quite clear, sorry.

I mean that unless your jungle is empty, you are losing out on potential gold and xp when you gank.
Season 1 had long spawn times, clearing jungle then ganking was entirely feasible.
Season 2 had the banking system, where so long as you clear once every 3 minutes or so you still have some gold and xp flow while ganking (Not literal gold, but potential gold buildup in the camps)
Season 3 you have 1 minute spawn times, cheap camps, and no banking system. You lose out on gold and xp when ganking, and you cannot keep up with lanes while straight farming the jungle.

You HAVE to gank, and not only that, but you have to convert on those ganks. While forcing summoners allows you to come back in ~4 minutes and catch them with their pants down, until you get that kill you trail further and further behind.
Lets say you get doubles and force summoners on all the lanes. You've done well but now you spent a good minute to a minute and a half just running around. 4 minutes into the game and you are just level 3. When you run back to any lane to convert, you are so much weaker than the laners they can just kill you, turning a successful gank into a kill trade


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MrTerrible123

Senior Member

12-29-2012

There is a fairly simple solution. If a creep is smited then the person that smited it gets the xp and gold for it no matter who kills it. Then you can pass buffs to the lanes without losing the xp and gold. Problem solved....next!