S3 Jungle Gold Starvation Still Exists

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Dactylogram

Senior Member

12-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by EzraTwitch View Post
Statikk I can fix all your problems, Switch Golems and Wraith camp location. . .

That will fix ALL the problems you mentioned in your first post.
omfg this will actually fix a lot of problems.

RIOT HIRE THIS MAN HE IS GENIUS.

I'm dead serious though. If golems are put near center, then mages will have a harder time fighting it. This is because golems deal more damage and are really tanky, so even if Mages commit, they will take a severe beating and slowly people will not want to do it.

Then the bot lane on blue side will have a harder time doing wraiths because it's harder to kite monsters that have a ranged attack (It's small, but it is ranged IIRC).


I seriously think this can solve many problems, but the gold starvation NEEDS TO BE ADDRESSED. NOW.


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Aloretec

Senior Member

12-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jatt View Post
The new jungle, like all of the S3 changes, is going to take alot of getting used to.

I think something that wasn't vocalized enough is that the early jungle is actually nerfed. Hopefully we can accept that the swing in the early game that the jungler provided in S2 was a little much, and it added an overabundance of responsibility on a single player.

From there, the question becomes, why would I want to play a jungler now? how do I keep up with solo laners?

I don't think circling the jungle for 25 minutes not ganking and coming out ahead is good for the game, and it's also not something that is heavily incentivised. Jungle minions, like lane minions, and like all farm on the map are a shared resource for everyone on the team to divide.

These changes are aimed at making the jungler an equal contributor to the outcome of the game. One of the problems we run into though, is that the jungle is the most dynamic and therefore variant position on the team. I've been in multiple games in the past day or two where I have CARRIED HARD out of the jungle. I do my clear, land an opportunistic gank at level 4-5, push the lane from there, and just hold my advantage throughout the match.

But it is also easily understandable, that you if you do a jungle clear, fail 4-5 ganks in a row, press too hard, fail an invade, die, lose buffs, and get counter-jungled, you're gonna feel terrible. I can almost guarantee that in that scenario you will probably be even further behind than if it happened in season 2.

One thing I would caution towards when thinking about these changes, is the potential for adaptation. I don't think the current play of the jungle is at all optimal. Perhaps now that mid lane champs have better mana itemization (tear buff), the jungler can have access to 2nd blue buff. Maybe now that wraiths are more difficult for mid to take, it's more optimal to differ that farm to the jungler at all times. Maybe now that double golums are worth proportionally more gold, junglers will spend more time killing them and be rewarded for it. Maybe now that the jungle takes longer to kill, players will spend less time camping lanes, and more time planning efficient gank routes.

I'm not saying we have it solved. We probably haven't, we probably have to tweak things. Just make sure to keep an open mind when trying this stuff, and remember how long it took to reach the level of understanding we all had of the S2 jungle. This patch has been out for 2 days, alot of OP stuff is probably still hidden within the new jungle.
Mid will never give up wraiths. They will poach them forever now. Hell I have mids taking wraiths and wolves now LOL.

99% of junglers have solved their mana problems after the first clear and while the CDR on blue is nice it's hardly more needed on the jungler then mid.

The tear upgrade is hardly worth wild. The problem with tear is that you came to the lane with no extra dmg or sustain. The item is still a noob trap in my opinion. In certain situations is it good? Yeah but making it a niche pick item isn't helping get the jungler a second blue. Also if they do build tear they're gonna want that 2nd blue to build up the stacks.

Putting extra gold on double did nothing to help the jungler. If you keep killing them when they spawn yes you're better off in gold. However you're out of position to counter gank, defend from counter jungling, or defend drag from either side of the map. The trade off from camping double is never worth it unless you're ahead enough to have complete map control.

You're forced to camp lanes more now then in s2 because it's your only source of income and exp. In S2 at least if you just afk ran around the jungle with the right route you had a steady small income source. Y

You took out HoG which was a problem top lane I agree, but it was the main income source for junglers as well. There's really nothing to replace it.

All the upgrades from hatchet a side from wriggles and spirit of the golem are terrible choices in any situation. You can buff the AD and AP ratio to death on them and I see no reason to build them over the other two. Their passives do not match the other two. A free ward and tenacity compared to a small amount of true dmg ticks or spell vamp. Most AP junglers also auto attack and it's easier to pick up the wriggles if you're struggling that much to sustain then the expensive hatchet upgrade for the spell vamp.

You nerfed defensive items to the ground. I know it'll get balanced, but most junglers are either tanks or build mostly tanky because it was cheap and effective. Now it's neither.


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Krystalmyth

Senior Member

12-29-2012

I would rather they just come out and say they intended for the new jungle to suck on purpose instead of trying to pass the buck on players.


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Aloretec

Senior Member

12-29-2012

They're asking mid and bot to play sub optimal order for the jungle to work the way they want


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TheFailBus

Senior Member

12-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by EraserxRain View Post
They're asking mid and bot to play sub optimal order for the jungle to work the way they want
Division of team resources has always been something to consider. In season one it was pretty much unheard of for mid and bot to take wraiths/golems because the jungler needed his gold.

The only reason it became common was because the rewards were so low and the camp respawns so fast in season 2 it became pointless for the jungler to farm jungle so they focused on ganking.

If that balance has changed again and the optimal way of dividing resources between the team is different that isn't a negative about the new jungle it is just a change in play style.


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Tulfrir

Senior Member

12-29-2012

I think Riot just wants junglers to gank a lot more?


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Levnik Moore

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Senior Member

12-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by aRescue View Post
Not all junglers take, or really have to take smite.

Edit: why would you down vote this? It's true, jungles that have high true damage can typically avoid taking smite, such as Cho and Nunu. Tying any bonus to smite is simply denying them the same bonus you want to give every other jungle. Tying any bonus to having or having smite on cooldown is just weak. The jungle needs to be changed to solve the current problems it's facing, giving gold based around a summoner spell is not going to fix the problem.
Jungle Cho without smite wont get anything until level 6. After that, he has to deal with the slight delay on ult in melee range to contend with smite's instant damage at range. In other words, at best he can only secure his own objectives, he is unable to steal anything.

Jungle Nunu without smite now needs to level Q in order for it to keep up with smite's damage. After that, he has to deal with the slight delay on Q in melee range to contend with smite's instant damage at range. In other words, at best he can only secure his own objectives, he is unable to steal anything.

Also, smite does 490 damage level 1, on a 70 second cooldown. Thats a free 7 dps for your first clear, assuming you are in combat with creeps 100% of the time (Which you aren't)

TL;DR - Get smite.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFailBus View Post
[...]The only reason it [taking jungle camps] became common was because the rewards were so low and the camp respawns so fast[...]
You mean like 25 gold and a 50 second respawn time?


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TheFailBus

Senior Member

12-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Levnik Moore View Post
Jungle Cho without smite wont get anything until level 6. After that, he has to deal with the slight delay on ult in melee range to contend with smite's instant damage at range. In other words, at best he can only secure his own objectives, he is unable to steal anything.

Jungle Nunu without smite now needs to level Q in order for it to keep up with smite's damage. After that, he has to deal with the slight delay on Q in melee range to contend with smite's instant damage at range. In other words, at best he can only secure his own objectives, he is unable to steal anything.

Also, smite does 490 damage level 1, on a 70 second cooldown. Thats a free 7 dps for your first clear, assuming you are in combat with creeps 100% of the time (Which you aren't)

TL;DR - Get smite.

Also the fact that cho or nunu with smite are absolute GODS of buff stealing/dragon rushing/baron rushing. You have to be really on the ball to stop a cho with one teammate from getting dragon before you can get to them.


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coffee addict

Senior Member

12-29-2012

i jungle a lot and i still feel like i'm always 5mins behind my lanes


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TheFailBus

Senior Member

12-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Levnik Moore View Post
You mean like 25 gold and a 50 second respawn time?
I didn't say that had changed back, but there's other factors which now could make it more efficient to leave that gold and clears to the jungle instead of taking them as a mid. Either way the point the poster made was dumb, you can't say something isn't balanced based on the old meta of how things was done, you change the meta to suit the new style. People didn't take camps off their jungle S1, they did in S2. Is it more beneficial to do it in S3 or not? I'm not sure, but it sure as hell doesn't mean that the jungle isn't balanced if you're better off not giving them to your mid