Tribunal punishments are NOT sufficient.

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Zykritch

Member

12-26-2012

Well, I wasn't saying there was a problem with alternative accounts.. Already I can see there are plenty of legitimate reasons for wanting to create one.. Resetting elo or rather having a fresh 1200 start being among them.. The problem is that people don't fear consequence -on- the alternative accounts.. as to them, well.. "It's not my main.. I don't care if I get banned." They are being abused and it is highly affecting (negatively) the lower level summoner queue's. Literally everything you can name that is reportable.. you will find in rather mass amounts in that low level range now due to the fact a large amount of players there are 30s on alternative accounts.. with absolutely no fear of repercussions to how they treat other people, or what they do/say to them.

I don't think the honor system is all -that- bad.. And I admire the purpose for which it was created.. I simply think it needs to be redone with a different "measuring" method.. Just a one time, lifetime "badge" if you're nice for a while.. doesn't really portray the truth of things accurately.. Of course there's the possibility that it can be revoked.. but you still have deliberate trolls and just.. flat out verbally harassing players, the absolute -epitome- of poor sports going into queue after queue with an honorable opponent crest that they do not deserve.. and portrays them as what they are not.


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Zykritch

Member

12-26-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Calys Teneb View Post
It's not opinionated. It's simply you've sat through two ban cycles because they happen about once every two months. That's the general schedule. You'll get some here and there but the really big ones (around twenty or thirty thousand, whatever .7% happens to be now) where Riot clears out manual audits happens about that frequently.

Either way, you can't IP ban people without them getting around it in thirty seconds, or banning people who happen to share the same house as them who did nothing, so there's never going to be the solution you want. Even MAC addresses can be changed. It's a little harder but it's still doable.
I have no idea the meaning nor the relevance of the first paragraph within this post of yours.. As far as the second? I am well aware of the capabilities people have regarding technology and the identities of such. Not -everyone- is going to have the capability or the patience to act upon a ban in that manner, in either case. And the point isn't to ban their IP address.. It is to ban their main account in sync with the punishments given to their alternate "smurf" account.. So that they can't just walk around trash talking players all day in the low level queues, trolling as hard as they can saying "BAN ME, I don't care.. It's my smurf LOL". There is absolutely wrong in the fact that people can as openly and blatantly abuse the system in that manner as they do now. The solution I proposed is absolutely possible.

An IP ban is simply put, is unnecessary.. I highly doubt anyone is going to enjoy being forced to start fresh a -3rd- time simply to wait out a month or so ban.. With no champions, no runes.. no ip, no summoner spells or anything.. It's excruciating enough as it is for some players to do it of their own accord.. If they choose to? Well, that's their own choice.. The point is that the system has the ip address identified so that it will link that account to the main one.. and if they commit any "crimes" on that one as well it well extend the ban on their main. Your every day player isn't going to go around using VPN's or changes via dynamic IP addresses to get back into league again.. Some people will, sure.. But you control what you can.. not just "give up" because there's a way around it. I'm sorry to tell you, but there's a way around nearly everything in the world.. -Especially- regarding security measures involving technology.. Does that mean the ideal solution is to sit back and do nothing about it? Or.. to simply sit back and settle for less, meaning.. what is current and inefficient.


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Calys Teneb

Senior Member

12-26-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zykritch View Post
I have no idea the meaning nor the relevance of the first paragraph within this post of yours.. As far as the second? I am well aware of the capabilities people have regarding technology and the identities of such. Not -everyone- is going to have the capability or the patience to act upon a ban in that manner, in either case. And the point isn't to ban their IP address.. It is to ban their main account in sync with the punishments given to their alternate "smurf" account.. So that they can't just walk around trash talking players all day in the low level queues, trolling as hard as they can saying "BAN ME, I don't care.. It's my smurf LOL". There is absolutely wrong in the fact that people can as openly and blatantly abuse the system in that manner as they do now. The solution I proposed is absolutely possible.

An IP ban is simply put, is unnecessary.. I highly doubt anyone is going to enjoy being forced to start fresh a -3rd- time simply to wait out a month or so ban.. With no champions, no runes.. no ip, no summoner spells or anything.. It's excruciating enough as it is for some players to do it of their own accord.. If they choose to? Well, that's their own choice.. The point is that the system has the ip address identified so that it will link that account to the main one.. and if they commit any "crimes" on that one as well it well extend the ban on their main. Your every day player isn't going to go around using VPN's or changes via dynamic IP addresses to get back into league again.. Some people will, sure.. But you control what you can.. not just "give up" because there's a way around it. I'm sorry to tell you, but there's a way around nearly everything in the world.. -Especially- regarding security measures involving technology.. Does that mean the ideal solution is to sit back and do nothing about it? Or.. to simply sit back and settle for less, meaning.. what is current and inefficient.
So the meaning of the first paragraph is this, since you don't seem to be aware of this process.

About every two or three months, Riot completes a manual audit on the .7% of summoners that they consider to be the most toxic to the game. These are players that are reported but don't get banned by the Tribunal, or don't accumulate enough reports to go to Tribunal but still make life miserable, etc etc. It's based on a number of conditions that this percentage of the player base meet. Riot manually reviews these cases and either bans them for two weeks straight away or permabans them straight away. This is all handled without going through the Tribunal and is immediate escalation as most of the time this is the first punishment they see.

This equates to immediate escalation of between 40 to 200K accounts, depending on whose numbers you believe. For NA, it's probably closer to 40-75k accounts just for our server.

The problem you allude to with leveling up. A lot of people who are banned permanently make a point of going in and smurfing to make people miserable. That's why I referred to bans regarding multiple accounts.


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Axle the Beast

Senior Member

12-26-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zykritch View Post
B]#1. [/B]Link accounts to each other via ip addresses/mac addresses: Enough of this lack of fear of bans due to the fact that it's "my smurf account." It allows people to freely ruin the enjoyment of other players without any fear of repercussions.. -at all-.
Maybe. Easily implementable. People should be allowed to appeal this at some point, though, in case of sibling accounts and coincidental IPs. People with TOR could use a system like this to get people they don't like banned by mimicking their IPs.

If they did this they would need to work it out carefully.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zykritch View Post
#2. Hit trolling HARD. Trolling is the downfall of online gaming, simply put. I can promise you not a person in the world is ever going to want to play league twice when they have to put up with the above occurrences EVERY other game. (And I mean new players) ... Is this honestly the impression you want to make on new members? That league is nothing but a game full of jerks and trolls?

I don't care what is done about it.. but -something- massive must be done. Make a troll sever. If someone is caught deliberately "trolling" .. put them on the "troll" server full of all the other poor sport players for a week or two that intentionally ruin others' enjoyment for sake of their own. Let them see what it's like to deal with teammates like themselves. Perma ban them? There shouldn't be little slap on the wrist warnings for trolling.. 9 other people suffer for an entire hour because one person just can't grow up.
I don't think it's true in any way that trolls are not being dealt with. They're reported and they're punished. There's not really a lot else that can be done, and there's no way to have preventative measures.

A lot of people complain about unfairly losing ELO in ranked. I can see their frustration being a bit warranted if they were trolled and there's nothing they could do, but honestly, 99% of the time everyone here on the forums can easily outline what they did wrong in the game, and why they deserve the ELO they have. (I don't see how you could have been winning a game in every area, and one troll was able to ruin you... What was he doing?) So really, with this, I can sympathize, but I think you're overplaying the idea that they're not being dealt with, when they're already being dealt with as well as they're gonna be. Having more vindictive punishments doesn't change the effectiveness in this case.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zykritch View Post
#3. Honorable Opponent crests have to be completely restructured:
Not sure what I can contribute here because in my experience, nearly everyone with ribbons was really nice and befit their ribbons. An average system could be cool though. Like others have said, the honor system is still in progress.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zykritch View Post
Rubbing in wins with profanity and comparing it to sexual violation.. by saying that they've been "f'd" or "raped" every single time they kill them..
Was gonna say though... "rape" does not always mean to force someone into ***. It can mean to destroy and steal. There is a perfectly valid, non-sexual usage of the word, and I use it all the time myself in that context.


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Zykritch

Member

12-27-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Axle the Beast View Post
Maybe. Easily implementable. People should be allowed to appeal this at some point, though, in case of sibling accounts and coincidental IPs. People with TOR could use a system like this to get people they don't like banned by mimicking their IPs.

If they did this they would need to work it out carefully.
I completely agree here, thank you for the input.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Axle the Beast View Post
I don't think it's true in any way that trolls are not being dealt with. They're reported and they're punished. There's not really a lot else that can be done, and there's no way to have preventative measures.
Well, they seem to think it isn't being dealt with.. which is why they now troll and ruin games intentionally with impunity. They have no fear whatsoever of the consequences of their actions do to the fact it isn't their real account.. and that's the entire purpose of using the above solution. I'd say it is being dealt with, sure.. but not at all in the most efficient manner.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Axle the Beast View Post
A lot of people complain about unfairly losing ELO in ranked. I can see their frustration being a bit warranted if they were trolled and there's nothing they could do, but honestly, 99% of the time everyone here on the forums can easily outline what they did wrong in the game, and why they deserve the ELO they have. (I don't see how you could have been winning a game in every area, and one troll was able to ruin you... What was he doing?) So really, with this, I can sympathize, but I think you're overplaying the idea that they're not being dealt with, when they're already being dealt with as well as they're gonna be. Having more vindictive punishments doesn't change the effectiveness in this case.
Personally I think there's a difference between having a "negative attitude" or a use of "profanity" simply because you are frustrated to no end have just "lost it" .. and having both and more simply because you "feel like it" and you want to "troll" people. To me trolling should outweigh quite a few of the other reportable offenses, and I think it should have consequences that make it last.. as the entire concept is endorsed and embraced by a large amount of the player population.. and at the same time.. it does absolutely nothing to better the playability nor likeability of League of Legends.. Quite honestly it just makes people become sick of it. There are plenty of methods to go about solving it.. I'm still wondering though is this the best place for me to be making this request/post?

As far as a troll making you lose in ranked.. it's quite easy to do.. Especially when he is playing the tank.. I've had countless occasions where I was playing ap mid, I won my lane, I warded.. I helped/ganked other lanes and even let them get the kills so that they could have an advantage over their opponents.. I was fed with 800+ ap only 30 or so minutes into the game.. and when it came down to the team fights (which eventually it almost always does) .. the troll decides to go off and die by himself before anyone can do anything about it.. and in either case often times people TRY to save him and end up dying themselves.. The point is.. I don't care how much ap or ad you have.. a fed carry is not going to just jump in there with 1800 or 2000 health and attack 5 people at the turret alone.. Carries need protection and they need initiators.. There's such a thing as glass cannon builds.. and even those that are not.. aren't sufficient to just jump into 5 people and survive. There are times you can push them away yet die for it (and I'd be willing to do so) .. but not all carries are aoe either. If you have a suicidal tank it is very much so difficult to protect your base in any manner. Trolling in team select as well, or arguments over roles.. which often result in "punishment-trolling" that players use to get back at each other..

-A huge solution to that problem? As far as team select.. Specified queues.. allow players the option to specifiy pre-queue which role they want to play.. And have the system match them with others that wish to play specific/fitting roles as well.. So everyone has a place BEFORE they go into team select.. For the most part your fighting, outside of individual champion selection, is gone. But I don't mean make queue's exclusive to this.. that would force games to be within the meta which not all players would be to happy with.. But allow it to be an option if desired.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Axle the Beast View Post
Not sure what I can contribute here because in my experience, nearly everyone with ribbons was really nice and befit their ribbons. An average system could be cool though. Like others have said, the honor system is still in progress.
Well, I think in my own perception I can let this "slide" as it is still in progress, and I've no doubt in my mind that Riot will be able to foresee the concept of un-honorable players receiving the award because they were "nice" and "honorable" for a month or so period of time before going hardcore troll-mode. I'd show you screenshots had I taken any.. but I have seen some of the worst of the worst.. reportable in multiple areas-players.. with the honorable opponent ribbon when they were anything -but- honorable.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Axle the Beast View Post
Was gonna say though... "rape" does not always mean to force someone into ***. It can mean to destroy and steal. There is a perfectly valid, non-sexual usage of the word, and I use it all the time myself in that context.
I absolutely agree here, and I know very well the context in which it can be used where it does -not- mean that.. But when people are talking about "ass-raping" more specifically, it's not difficult to tell what they truly mean.. And that was the context that I was describing.


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Røhø

Junior Member

12-28-2012

I'm surprised so many people defend the status quo and fail to recognize the magnitude of the problem. SMURF - another login for a user with no accountability for their actions. They couldn't care less of tribunal actions against their smurf account since they only play it when they need to dodge a game (often ranked). This in itself as annoying for those who spend considerable time waiting for a Queue, finally get in one, make the bans, the selections, then someone on either team dodges.
The SMURF doesn't care if you ban their smurf acct, they have many. They know the can AFK with impunity because the punishment to one of their many accounts don't matter. They go to another SMURF or simply create another one. So they can be as vulgar and costic as they like.... what is RIOT going to do.. ban their SMURF... big deal.

Approximately 1 in 3 games I deal with one of these people, trolls etc. And usually when they screw the game for someone they start telling the teammates to report you "The good guy". Yes, I've even gotten a warning because I was reported for telling the team to group up, to stop soloing and feeding. For doing everything the summoners code tells me to do -- I get reported.

I just finished game where I called mid and chose Kassadin, then the troll "sori" picks master yi after I've locked and calls mid. Others tell him that I already called mid.
He calls mid again, then goes mid when game starts. As you know Kass struggles on cs early, and for yi is easy with alpha strike. SO of course he goes mid and takes all the cs. Team tells him to go bot that I've got mid and he ignores. Since I can't get cs, I had to jungle without smite. Later he goes bot. By 20 mins in, I'm 2 levels down and have 2 deaths because I can't trade, am squishy, and they repeatedly gank me because they no am easy target. Did I forget to mention this troll ruined the game for me... but we also had another AFK from level 1. Then the pattern I've seen occurs again, he feds the enemy and starts telling my teammates that "I'm a troll, and to report me". Why? Because the REAL troll doesn't want to be reported, so they try to get the focus on the one they trolled. If everyone blames me, then he gets off without the reports, and the legit player gets the punishments that are deserved by the troll.

So just how is this system working? I'll tell you. I want to quit LOL. I've had it with the verbal abuse, the trolls, and the repeated issues. If it was one in hundred games, no problem. But this happens in 40-50% of games I play. I'd probably win 80% of games without trolls, but even when I win with a troll harassing and messing up the game, it wasn't fun. And that is what we play for... FUN.

When the FUN is destroyed because RIOT won't take appropriate actions... the game will decline. Don't believe me... ever hear of Unreal Tournament? One of the best games ever created and few legit players play it because of all the online cheaters have ruined it.

Simple solutions:
1. Have players pick roles before joining Q. No more fights over position to play and expedites game start.
2. Tie actual AFK and intentional trolling to the IP. BTW, IP can't be faked, so learn about networks before making comments.
3. Troll the troll, when they go to login.... put them in queue for 50 mins, then when they get in... give them the message... you've been banned for a month. Make them wait the 50 mins to find out they've been banned. Payback for making others waste 50 mins of their time losing a game they were trolled in.
4. Quickly warn people for making false reports claiming someone intentionally fed.
5. Add more report options like KSing and CS stealing. Many games I've had someone that deliberately stays out of fight, last hits my kills. I may have 3-4 deaths and only 1 kill and 12 assists at the end of the game, and then if we're losing they tell the team to report me... because my stats stink since they've been trolling and taking my kills, while I take all the damage to win the fights. They get the gold and the kills, I get the deaths and I have to buy more heal potions.
6. When players are repeatedly reported as unskilled, group them to play with each other instead of putting them on my team.
7. In ranked, once a month add 100 to the elo of players below 1200 but not after they are 1200 or above. Why, because sometimes good players get stuck in elo hell. I would love for a pro to take my account and PROVE to me that it doesn't exist and they can win with 4 bad players. I literally played a ranked game with 4 people AFK. Pro or not you lose that game... I went 4-3 BTW but lost of course.
8. A person who is warned or punished deserves the right to challenge the punishment. Recorded game must be present along with chat logs b4 during and after game. People often say things b4 the game starts that are punishable and then act like the other guy's got an attitude problem once the game starts.
9. The worst of the worst should be banned on their IP address. Banning a player name does nothing as they just create another and another and another.....


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OhBoyItsaMegaman

Senior Member

12-28-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rh View Post
I'm surprised so many people defend the status quo and fail to recognize the magnitude of the problem. SMURF - another login for a user with no accountability for their actions. They couldn't care less of tribunal actions against their smurf account since they only play it when they need to dodge a game (often ranked). This in itself as annoying for those who spend considerable time waiting for a Queue, finally get in one, make the bans, the selections, then someone on either team dodges.
The SMURF doesn't care if you ban their smurf acct, they have many. They know the can AFK with impunity because the punishment to one of their many accounts don't matter. They go to another SMURF or simply create another one. So they can be as vulgar and costic as they like.... what is RIOT going to do.. ban their SMURF... big deal.

Approximately 1 in 3 games I deal with one of these people, trolls etc. And usually when they screw the game for someone they start telling the teammates to report you "The good guy". Yes, I've even gotten a warning because I was reported for telling the team to group up, to stop soloing and feeding. For doing everything the summoners code tells me to do -- I get reported.

I just finished game where I called mid and chose Kassadin, then the troll "sori" picks master yi after I've locked and calls mid. Others tell him that I already called mid.
He calls mid again, then goes mid when game starts. As you know Kass struggles on cs early, and for yi is easy with alpha strike. SO of course he goes mid and takes all the cs. Team tells him to go bot that I've got mid and he ignores. Since I can't get cs, I had to jungle without smite. Later he goes bot. By 20 mins in, I'm 2 levels down and have 2 deaths because I can't trade, am squishy, and they repeatedly gank me because they no am easy target. Did I forget to mention this troll ruined the game for me... but we also had another AFK from level 1. Then the pattern I've seen occurs again, he feds the enemy and starts telling my teammates that "I'm a troll, and to report me". Why? Because the REAL troll doesn't want to be reported, so they try to get the focus on the one they trolled. If everyone blames me, then he gets off without the reports, and the legit player gets the punishments that are deserved by the troll.

So just how is this system working? I'll tell you. I want to quit LOL. I've had it with the verbal abuse, the trolls, and the repeated issues. If it was one in hundred games, no problem. But this happens in 40-50% of games I play. I'd probably win 80% of games without trolls, but even when I win with a troll harassing and messing up the game, it wasn't fun. And that is what we play for... FUN.

When the FUN is destroyed because RIOT won't take appropriate actions... the game will decline. Don't believe me... ever hear of Unreal Tournament? One of the best games ever created and few legit players play it because of all the online cheaters have ruined it.

Simple solutions:
1. Have players pick roles before joining Q. No more fights over position to play and expedites game start.
2. Tie actual AFK and intentional trolling to the IP. BTW, IP can't be faked, so learn about networks before making comments.
3. Troll the troll, when they go to login.... put them in queue for 50 mins, then when they get in... give them the message... you've been banned for a month. Make them wait the 50 mins to find out they've been banned. Payback for making others waste 50 mins of their time losing a game they were trolled in.
4. Quickly warn people for making false reports claiming someone intentionally fed.
5. Add more report options like KSing and CS stealing. Many games I've had someone that deliberately stays out of fight, last hits my kills. I may have 3-4 deaths and only 1 kill and 12 assists at the end of the game, and then if we're losing they tell the team to report me... because my stats stink since they've been trolling and taking my kills, while I take all the damage to win the fights. They get the gold and the kills, I get the deaths and I have to buy more heal potions.
6. When players are repeatedly reported as unskilled, group them to play with each other instead of putting them on my team.
7. In ranked, once a month add 100 to the elo of players below 1200 but not after they are 1200 or above. Why, because sometimes good players get stuck in elo hell. I would love for a pro to take my account and PROVE to me that it doesn't exist and they can win with 4 bad players. I literally played a ranked game with 4 people AFK. Pro or not you lose that game... I went 4-3 BTW but lost of course.
8. A person who is warned or punished deserves the right to challenge the punishment. Recorded game must be present along with chat logs b4 during and after game. People often say things b4 the game starts that are punishable and then act like the other guy's got an attitude problem once the game starts.
9. The worst of the worst should be banned on their IP address. Banning a player name does nothing as they just create another and another and another.....
Oh dear. I was just about to read this whole thing, but fortunately I skimmed it and those two lines caught my eye. That was close.


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Zykritch

Member

12-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by OhBoyItsaMegaman View Post
Oh dear. I was just about to read this whole thing, but fortunately I skimmed it and those two lines caught my eye. That was close.
lol? Clearly you're a fan of the overly used "tldr" .. also known as "too LAZY, didn't read". And you apparently don't understand the context in which he means "faked".. So before you act like a skeptical jerk, ask for clarification on a topic you clearly know nothing about. People like you, and your arrogant, rude attitudes are perfect examples of why people are now quitting league entirely.. and fast. Focus a little more on being a productive member of the community instead of acting like a mindless jerk, or don't post on my thread.


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Røhø

Junior Member

12-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by OhBoyItsaMegaman View Post
Oh dear. I was just about to read this whole thing, but fortunately I skimmed it and those two lines caught my eye. That was close.
Why post if you have nothing to say... are you ten?


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Fudouri

Senior Member

12-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rh View Post
Why post if you have nothing to say... are you ten?
I think his point is that IP is actually easily faked.


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