When to surrender and when NOT too

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HellHoundOTT

Junior Member

12-25-2012

Played a game a few games back, Ap Teemo mid (No comment on champ choice please) all the lanes but mine we're losing and Underfed from the 20 min mark our adc, top and support wanted to surrender and spammed like crazy we lost all team-fights and exchanges cause i was getting focused and NOT protected. After a 1 for 4 initiation by our Vi I thought we will get slaughtered, instead the enemy Alistar ran over 6 shrooms killing the adc and jungle in the process. leaving me with the support, pushed all lanes up to the nexus and the enemy team surrenders. Learning Intention: "No matter how stuffed the game gets you CAN CARRY your team WITH LUCK OR WITH SKILL."


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trackmaster

Senior Member

12-25-2012

Was down 4-16 with my friends as ALL AD CARRIES, we won eventually.


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Holy Delsus

Junior Member

12-26-2012

I'm only a new player but I pretty much refuse to surrender unless there's at least 2 lanes lost. A few days ago was Dr Mundo to a team of Mages (knew we were in for a tough slog anyway). Soon as start Soraka disconnects so were one down. Then Lux spends majority of time in and out to be more a slight distraction to enemy than anything else. So pretty much 2 down. Went top, cleared 1st turret, mid was lost, other 2 wanted to gg. I declined, repulsed mid, went bot, cleared 2 turrets while declining surrenders. Repulsed 2 more mids, lost bot, declined surrender, repulsed one more mid and bot, pushed for top again and then we lost. Others all got out of the endgame quick, I gg other players and got congradulated for hanging on. If that was what happened with 2 players down can hope that we may have won if others were playing.


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Axle the Beast

Senior Member

12-26-2012

Agreed for the most part, although I don't think defining something like this so strictly is necessary and I don't agree with you in every case. But people surrender way too soon when things are still fairly up in the air. I don't like it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HellHoundOTT View Post
Played a game a few games back, Ap Teemo mid (No comment on champ choice please) all the lanes but mine we're losing and Underfed from the 20 min mark our adc, top and support wanted to surrender and spammed like crazy we lost all team-fights and exchanges cause i was getting focused and NOT protected. After a 1 for 4 initiation by our Vi I thought we will get slaughtered, instead the enemy Alistar ran over 6 shrooms killing the adc and jungle in the process. leaving me with the support, pushed all lanes up to the nexus and the enemy team surrenders. Learning Intention: "No matter how stuffed the game gets you CAN CARRY your team WITH LUCK OR WITH SKILL."
Quote:
Originally Posted by trackmaster View Post
Was down 4-16 with my friends as ALL AD CARRIES, we won eventually.
NIIIIIIICE you guys. 8D


Quote:
Originally Posted by Holy Delsus View Post
I'm only a new player but I pretty much refuse to surrender unless there's at least 2 lanes lost. A few days ago was Dr Mundo to a team of Mages (knew we were in for a tough slog anyway). Soon as start Soraka disconnects so were one down. Then Lux spends majority of time in and out to be more a slight distraction to enemy than anything else. So pretty much 2 down. Went top, cleared 1st turret, mid was lost, other 2 wanted to gg. I declined, repulsed mid, went bot, cleared 2 turrets while declining surrenders. Repulsed 2 more mids, lost bot, declined surrender, repulsed one more mid and bot, pushed for top again and then we lost. Others all got out of the endgame quick, I gg other players and got congradulated for hanging on. If that was what happened with 2 players down can hope that we may have won if others were playing.
Sometimes losing lanes doesn't matter at all. Losing turrets is only one aspect of the game. If you're winning teamfights, all you need is one good defense, taking out 2-3 champs in the process, and then a good push. Game won.

But yeah I know how that feels, nearly winning a game if not for lost teammates. I know this doesn't have to do with Summoner's Rift, but I almost won a 1v3 on Twisted Treeline as Renekton. Both my allies were AFK at the beginning and never came back, and I thought I was doomed. But I got a few kills and then got monstrously fed. Game ended with me carving at their nexus, but they got mine first. If I had allies it would have been an easy victory. xP


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MateenOwesMoney

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Senior Member

12-26-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by ragnaraq View Post
I never surrender. I fight to the end. Even if there is no way of winning, I try to make out a few more kills.
People like you make this game objectively worse and this is why the community is so ****ty


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Axle the Beast

Senior Member

12-26-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by MateenOwesMoney View Post
People like you make this game objectively worse and this is why the community is so ****ty
How? It's how he enjoys playing the most. Surrenders are not some objective necessity; it's what each player chooses to do or not do according to their preference. Do THEY believe they have a shot, and/or, will they still have fun finishing the game? If you start a surrender vote and it fails, you have little room to complain at your team, because you agreed to play with a team in the first place, and therefore you've consented to their desires regarding when to surrender. If your team disagrees with you and wants to continue playing, you really need to accept that.


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MateenOwesMoney

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Senior Member

12-26-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Axle the Beast View Post
How? It's how he enjoys playing the most. Surrenders are not some objective necessity; it's what each player chooses to do or not do according to their preference. Do THEY believe they have a shot, and/or, will they still have fun finishing the game? If you start a surrender vote and it fails, you have little room to complain at your team, because you agreed to play with a team in the first place, and therefore you've consented to their desires regarding when to surrender. If your team disagrees with you and wants to continue playing, you really need to accept that.
I shouldn't have to waste my time playing an unwinnable game. Nobody "consents" to that. Their fun doesn't "outweigh" anyone elses. A duo queue voting "no" because "dont worry that we're a combined 2/12, we'll carry" should absolutely not be able to dictate the enjoyment other three players on the team. I shouldn't have to play with feeders beyond the 20 minute mark

Being down a couple of kills, a dragon, and a tower doesn't mean a game is unwinnable.

When all 3 lanes lose, your jungler gets countered and you have a poor teamcomp because botlane went Teemo/Mundo cuz "Dont worry we always win", the game is over. Not surrendering in this situation should be considered trolling and thus, a bannable offense. Nothing wrong with throwing in the towel and congratulating the other team at a game well-played. Also, when mid and bot each die 10 times during lane phase, I shouldn't be punished for just chilling at the fountain. If they're having "so much fun", they can do so without me while I check my email or browse reddit or something


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Axle the Beast

Senior Member

12-26-2012

You clearly have some history with idiotic people refusing to surrender when it makes sense, but that doesn't really change the core points and this is about all I can really respond to you about:

Quote:
Originally Posted by MateenOwesMoney View Post
I shouldn't have to waste my time playing an unwinnable game. Nobody "consents" to that.
Everybody consents to playing with a team, and going by a vote. It's a vote. You have your vote, and they have theirs. If you lost the vote, well, that's too bad. Chances are in another game, someone else who disagrees with you is going to lose the vote. It's fair.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MateenOwesMoney View Post
Their fun doesn't "outweigh" anyone elses.
Precisely, and this applies as much to you as it does to them. Again, it's a matter of democracy; you're playing with a group of people, and not one of your desires is more important than the other. If you lost the vote, you need to suck it up.


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MateenOwesMoney

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Senior Member

12-26-2012

Yeah, but a 3/2 vote isn't loss because you know, 3>2

I would be happy with a few changes. 1) If a team has an afker and unanimously agrees to a 4-0 surrender vote, they should be able to do it before the 20 minute mark. I realize that 4v5s are winnable, but it really depends on the circumstances. If Mid goes 0/4 than ragequits at 10 minute mark, the rest of the team shouldnt have to wait out the 10 minutes of being 2-shot by the enemy mid

2) A duo queue in ranked should only count as 1 vote


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Axle the Beast

Senior Member

12-26-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by MateenOwesMoney View Post
Yeah, but a 3/2 vote isn't loss because you know, 3>2

I would be happy with a few changes. 1) If a team has an afker and unanimously agrees to a 4-0 surrender vote, they should be able to do it before the 20 minute mark. I realize that 4v5s are winnable, but it really depends on the circumstances. If Mid goes 0/4 than ragequits at 10 minute mark, the rest of the team shouldnt have to wait out the 10 minutes of being 2-shot by the enemy mid

2) A duo queue in ranked should only count as 1 vote
Hmm, well I do like the 4 votes needed thing because it prevents griefers or whiners from winning in most cases, but I guess that can get frustrating too. I also don't like the idea of changing the 20 minute limit.

I would definitely say that leavers and AFK champs (say, no clicks within 2 minutes?) are discounted from the vote and no longer get a say.'

Why should a duo only count as one vote? I've had numerous cases where I've played with a friend and we actually disagreed, and what would something like this mean for over 2 man teams? 4 players teaming together would only count as 1 vote? They shouldn't get punished for deciding to play together.