"Unbalancable by Design"

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Mynt

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Senior Member

12-20-2012

I need to explain about Vladimir.

At one point in the game, by the fact that his ultimate increased the amount of damage he dealt by 25% he was dealing 1500 damage without building any AP.

That's how much Talon deals, without building any AD.

I am sensing a correlation.


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Krynul

Senior Member

12-20-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by daemonchorro View Post
Blitzcrank, the Support-Carry-Tank-CC-DPS master.
which one of these things, doesn't belong? Which one of these things... doesn't belong?

(hint: there's at least two of them)


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shalexade

Senior Member

12-20-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthropics View Post
And Zyra has been nerfed accordingly.
Which should bring her win-rate to a more balanced 50%.

Now, since Blitz is already under 50%- what number do you propose he is brought down to before he is "balanced"? 45% winrate? 40%?


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Yinne

Senior Member

12-20-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
I alluded to this in another post I wrote, but you're generally right--there's no such thing as an unbalanceable concept.

However, an important consideration to take when finding that happy medium between OP and UP is whether that ability still feels good to use in the end. Lee Sin is a great example for a champion that's actually very easy to nerf, as he's quite mechanically bloated...
Q: damage, dash, execute, reveal
W: shield, dash, energy return, life steal, spell vamp
E: damage, reveal, attack speed slow, move speed slow
R: damage, targeted interrupt, AoE interrupt
It's incredibly difficult to nerf individual numbers, as that runs the risk of watering it down so much he's no longer fun to use. However because his abilities have so much tacked on, it's a simple matter to remove one of the more minor aspects without destroying his core gameplay (for example, the energy return on his W that most people, including me two days ago, don't even know about).

Someone like Blitzcrank is really much harder to nerf because his strength is also his defining characteristic. It's up to live team to determine if Blitzcrank is a problem though.
Hi Nome, can you give us some insight on the Riven nerf? I'm pretty angry because Riven can be countered by a lot of champions top lane, such as Darius, Udyr, teemo, pantheon, etc. While she herself only mainly trade with others at melee range.

In short, why the Riven nerf? You guys have already nerfed BC.


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Kelarm

Senior Member

12-20-2012

Nothing is "unbalanceable by design." That's such a silly thing to say, I can't believe people actually argue that. Almost every ability in the game has several different numbers associated with it, all of which can be changed at Riot's discretion. Numbers are not design, they modify design. Numbers can be heavily changed without changing the actual design of a champion.

Take Ryze's Q for example. It's a pretty simple spell, single-targeted magic damage and that's it. But even such a simple spell has many different numbers associated with it - base damage, scaling damage, cost, cooldown, range, etc. Any or all of these numbers could be changed and the balance of the spell would change.

So people say Blitzcrank is unbalanceable by design? BS. His Q has base damage, scaling damage, cost, cooldown, range, missile speed, stun duration... I probably even missed a few. If he was proven to be overpowered, any negative change to those numbers would make him weaker, and could continue to make him weaker until he stopped being overpowered. How is that unbalanceable?

Of course it's a horse of a different color to keep everything balanced and still fun to play. That's more of a challenge.


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Yinne

Senior Member

12-20-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by shalexade View Post
Which should bring her win-rate to a more balanced 50%.

Now, since Blitz is already under 50%- what number do you propose he is brought down to before he is "balanced"? 45% winrate? 40%?
what about his ban rate? Blitz can still be countered, so I'm guessing only higher elo teams counter Blitz and don't ban him.


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MormonChinMormon

Senior Member

12-20-2012

if a champion is picked or banned at every elo they need a nerf. It's that simple.


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Krimson62

Senior Member

12-20-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
I alluded to this in another post I wrote, but you're generally right--there's no such thing as an unbalanceable concept.

However, an important consideration to take when finding that happy medium between OP and UP is whether that ability still feels good to use in the end. Lee Sin is a great example for a champion that's actually very easy to nerf, as he's quite mechanically bloated...
Q: damage, dash, execute, reveal
W: shield, dash, energy return, life steal, spell vamp
E: damage, reveal, attack speed slow, move speed slow
R: damage, targeted interrupt, AoE interrupt
It's incredibly difficult to nerf individual numbers, as that runs the risk of watering it down so much he's no longer fun to use. However because his abilities have so much tacked on, it's a simple matter to remove one of the more minor aspects without destroying his core gameplay (for example, the energy return on his W that most people, including me two days ago, don't even know about).

Someone like Blitzcrank is really much harder to nerf because his strength is also his defining characteristic. It's up to live team to determine if Blitzcrank is a problem though.

what if blitz had to charge his grab like Vi and Varus?

Leaves room for good play. leaves lots of counteroptions, gives an actual negative to using such a high reward skill other than a cooldown that will be dropped with items


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Zuphlas

Senior Member

12-20-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
Someone like Blitzcrank is really much harder to nerf because his strength is also his defining characteristic. It's up to live team to determine if Blitzcrank is a problem though.
Frankly they'd seem painfully incompetent if they didn't see him as a problem. I don't understand why you think he's so hard to nerf though - as the OP mentioned, nobody really complained about him back before his mana costs got buffed and the MS debuff got removed on his W. What exactly leads the balance team to believe that reverting unnecessary buffs he received in the past would not put him in a state that both: A) retains the feel of his core strength (his hook) and B) puts him in a state that allows him to be good without being a must ban/pick?

And no, as much as I hate that yellow mother ****er I'm not trying to lobby for blitz nerfs - I'm just not sure what would give anybody the impression that he isn't at least a slight issue compared to some of the left-field nerfs we get each week.


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Anthropics

Senior Member

12-20-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by shalexade View Post
Which should bring her win-rate to a more balanced 50%.

Now, since Blitz is already under 50%- what number do you propose he is brought down to before he is "balanced"? 45% winrate? 40%?
Nobody intelligent gives a damn about solo queue win rate. Olaf has a 47% win-rate and is one of the most competitive picks for top lane. Alistar is at a consistent 45 or so % win rate, yet is also a competitive tournament pick. Bringing up solo queue win rates is a waste of time when considering how powerful a champion is in competitive play. Janna has a 53% win rate. Does that mean Janna is a better champion than Alistar and Blitzcrank? Then why aren't the pros using her?