LoL is going to need to step up there game soon.

First Riot Post
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Kingsize

Member

12-20-2012

Guy's head is to thick, hes those type of players who never listens to anyone and thinks he always just. One of those garbage players who blames people for losing his lane. Just move on man.


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NBG SoBe

Senior Member

12-20-2012

please read/respond to my post mr Red. I think I have some good points in there to assist your argument


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Richard Toucher

Member

12-20-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by NinetyNineTails View Post
Just gonna leave this here;

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...0#post13420300

Basically covers most of the 'why isn't X in the game???' issues
Though that post is about a year and 4 months old. Makes one wonder about either the logistics of implementing it, or how much of a priority they really believe replays are as a feature.


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Rauron

Senior Member

12-20-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
Looking at it from an insider's point of view vs. an outsider's point of view is an eye-opener because you really get to see the gears in motion. Every company is different here, because they all have their own set of challenges to face, and the end-user really never gets to see the 90% of the iceberg that's underwater.
There was a time when transparency made this much less of an issue. Now, Riot is all about "we can't talk" and "wait and see". What happened to the open company as which y'all started?


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Fox P McCloud

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Senior Member

12-20-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
I was comparing featureset and tech between League and Dota 2. But if you're talking about Dota 1, then you're comparing League and Warcraft 3.
Exactly my point (in LoL and WCIII) many work around, tricks, etc had to be implemented just to get things working/running in a certain manner (and some become permanent mechanics to boot).

In any event if you're discussing feature-set I still think some of the objections are applicable--yes LoL had to start form scratch, yes source was already in place, but it's been over 3 years now that LoL has been out, and there's a few areas that are extremely lacking, even after all this time (simple little things here and there).

Some things, I understand and get, but others I don't feel there's a good excuse for (after this long of at time).


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ManicPhilosopher

Senior Member

12-20-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by KSG SoBe View Post
please read/respond to my post mr Red. I think I have some good points in there to assist your argument

You absolutely do. I wish I could do more than upvote (which I have done) and hope people truly interested actually read this far into the discussion.


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Snoop Nome

Game Designer

12-20-2012
5 of 5 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox P McCloud View Post
Exactly my point (in LoL and WCIII) many work around, tricks, etc had to be implemented just to get things working/running in a certain manner (and some become permanent mechanics to boot).

In any event if you're discussing feature-set I still think some of the objections are applicable--yes LoL had to start form scratch, yes source was already in place, but it's been over 3 years now that LoL has been out, and there's a few areas that are extremely lacking, even after all this time (simple little things here and there).

Some things, I understand and get, but others I don't feel there's a good excuse for (after this long of at time).
That's an extremely poor comparison.
DotA 1 is not a retail game. It's a map (not even a mod, really). The features that players are asking for in this thread like replays, pausing, LAN, etc. were bundled with Warcraft 3. Those are Blizzard-created features. The ingenuity you're describing is entirely script-side using JASS, which again is a system created by Blizzard. DotA's not even the best example of great scripting; check out Tides of Blood, Eve of the Apocalyse: Twilight, or Hand of Sorrow Knight, Desert of Exile, or Advent if the Zenith for very well put together MOBA maps. And even so, the vast majority of these scripting quirks wouldn't fly in a retail game for various reasons typically related to performance. Ever wonder why all of these retail games don't support a mode like ARDM (for the uninitiated, ARDM is all-random deathmatch, in which your champion is swapped out for a new one every time you die)? Because it's not feasible, under current hardware restrictions, to be freezing every player in the game every time a new champion has to load. DotA 1 was OK with it because again, it doesn't have that quality bar and player expectation attached to it.

There is no "work around" or "trick" that can allow us to get major features working quickly. Taking shortcuts, or using "hacky methods" that put future development efforts in jeopardy is exactly the mentality that leads to why we're dealing with these tech debts now. So again, patience is key; if we want to add a feature, we will make sure we do it well.


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Fox P McCloud

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Senior Member

12-20-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
That's an extremely poor comparison.
DotA 1 is not a retail game. It's a map (not even a mod, really). The features that players are asking for in this thread like replays, pausing, LAN, etc. were bundled with Warcraft 3. Those are Blizzard-created features. The ingenuity you're describing is entirely script-side using JASS, which again is a system created by Blizzard. DotA's not even the best example of great scripting; check out Tides of Blood, Eve of the Apocalyse: Twilight, or Hand of Sorrow Knight, Desert of Exile, or Advent if the Zenith for very well put together MOBA maps. And even so, the vast majority of these scripting quirks wouldn't fly in a retail game for various reasons typically related to performance. Ever wonder why all of these retail games don't support a mode like ARDM (for the uninitiated, ARDM is all-random deathmatch, in which your champion is swapped out for a new one every time you die)? Because it's not feasible, under current hardware restrictions, to be freezing every player in the game every time a new champion has to load. DotA 1 was OK with it because again, it doesn't have that quality bar and player expectation attached to it.

There is no "work around" or "trick" that can allow us to get major features working quickly. Taking shortcuts, or using "hacky methods" that put future development efforts in jeopardy is exactly the mentality that leads to why we're dealing with these tech debts now. So again, patience is key; if we want to add a feature, we will make sure we do it well.
You completely misinterpreted what I said and even seem to have taken a bit of offense at it in that interpretation. As I specifically statements regarding "humble origins" were projected at the game in general, not "game features" which I found out is what you were referring.

My statements regarding DotA were in how to get the game working, mechanics, etc with work-arounds and tricks, not major features.


And my secondary statement---again, I said it's the "little things that add up" and you go off on a tangent as if I'm criticizing you over not having LAN, replays, etc---why? My statements were not intended to intentionally cause offense or frustrate anyone here, but you seem to have taken them that way =/


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NBG SoBe

Senior Member

12-20-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
That's an extremely poor comparison.
DotA 1 is not a retail game. It's a map (not even a mod, really). The features that players are asking for in this thread like replays, pausing, LAN, etc. were bundled with Warcraft 3. Those are Blizzard-created features. The ingenuity you're describing is entirely script-side using JASS, which again is a system created by Blizzard. DotA's not even the best example of great scripting; check out Tides of Blood, Eve of the Apocalyse: Twilight, or Hand of Sorrow Knight, Desert of Exile, or Advent if the Zenith for very well put together MOBA maps. And even so, the vast majority of these scripting quirks wouldn't fly in a retail game for various reasons typically related to performance. Ever wonder why all of these retail games don't support a mode like ARDM (for the uninitiated, ARDM is all-random deathmatch, in which your champion is swapped out for a new one every time you die)? Because it's not feasible, under current hardware restrictions, to be freezing every player in the game every time a new champion has to load. DotA 1 was OK with it because again, it doesn't have that quality bar and player expectation attached to it.

There is no "work around" or "trick" that can allow us to get major features working quickly. Taking shortcuts, or using "hacky methods" that put future development efforts in jeopardy is exactly the mentality that leads to why we're dealing with these tech debts now. So again, patience is key; if we want to add a feature, we will make sure we do it well.

As a software programming student, I totally understand the implications of what you just said there. I totally agree. I think taking the shortcut of using a relatively unsupported program like Adobe Air has fundamentally stunted many of the features you guys would like to be using. I can't wait until you guys finally move away from it and finally get League on your own proprietary base system. Once that is finally done (probably at LEAST 1 maybe 2 or 3 years down the road) I think many of the quirks and features that many players have clamored for will finally rear their head. Add too that the HUGE growth of the game in a very short amount of time, and the massive hiring, and server growth you guys had to go through the first few years, I think you guys have done a FANTASTIC job with the features you have implemented so far. Just getting Spectate mode up and running two years into the game was a massive feat that I don't think is really appreciated as much as it should be.

You guys will work this out, I'm sure of it. Dota 2 is not a League Killer, its simply another bar for you to go "ok, now how do we go above that?" Which, by all accounts, I think you will. Valve is a very old and very well backed company with MANY years of experience over you, which puts you at a slight disadvantage to start, but with the success you've achieved over the past few years, I don't feel it will be too much longer until League is up to par with the features and functions that Valve has thanks to its Steam program ( which is extremely well thought out and very strong) and maybe even surpasses it thanks to the great people and ingenuity you guys show each and every year.


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exe3

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Senior Member

12-20-2012

No offense RiotNome but the fact is that even in beta DotA2 is far more polished and feature rich than LoL will probably ever be. If the game DotA2 wasn't so horrible i'd move over to it but regardless of the why the fact is that League is far behind on standard features and polish. Yes technical limitation and such might hold progress back but end users don't care, they care about they see and they may see DotA2 as a far better game to play given a far greater level of polish.

To be quite frank the ONLY reason League is where it's at today is because you guys commanded a monopoly. You simply had no competition except DotA1 which required you buy War3 and was hyper user-unfriendly (no matchmaking for example), HoN which you had to pay for (I know tons of people who played and loved HoN during the beta but still decided to not buy it and play LoL instead because it was free) and Demigod which was dead. If you had had competition League would not be where it is today because hand on heart LoL is not that much of a quality game, it gets some things right (and sometimes things that have been broken for a very long time get fixed like the Season 3 changes) has the potential to be fun at times (mostly due to playing with friends) but it also still to this day after 2+ years gets many things wrong and you WILL lose players when competing games release that don't feature LoL's flaws (currently games like Rise of the Immortals are just copying LoL flaws and all so they're going no where but other titles like Blizzard All-Stars will be very interesting to see though imo they oversimplified itemization so we'll just have to see if that one gains traction or not).

tl;dr

The end user doesn't care about what technical limitations prevents features and polish from being done and LoL is only where it's at because it's previously had no competition. Once competition starts showing up I think Riot will struggle to keep players over far more polished and feature complete games (it won't die though, LoL's far too big to die just like that particularly with recent efforts to fix what's broken ala S3 items).