@Morello, can you explain the design philosophy used for nerfing champions?

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DanmakuHeaven

Member

12-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by WabbitMonster View Post
@Morello

these are a few champs i nerer see playedor play unless my friends are in a 5 man group and some of them just feel off so i was wondering
what are your thoughts on

sejuani

swain

leblanc

galio

siver

caitlyn

rumble

vladmir

shaco

zilean

sejuani - unknown champion

swain - good midlaner, would be a decent top if he wasn't so mana reliable, the reason why he doesn't get picked a lot is his lack of burst/mobility, he is a beast in drawn out fights though.

leblanc - a good pick if you plan on winning fast, she falls off late game, might still be decent especially with changed pen

galio - gets picked quite a bit to counter some nasty mids (I play him myself as support for soraka ad )

sivir - was really strong after the rework, until she got nerfed, then corki was just stronger and ez was a newfound prodigy ....until he got overnerfed

caitlyn - falls off late

rumble - He is DAMN strong, I got no idea why he rarely is played

vladmir - really good top laner, also played quite a bit

shaco - His main problem is that he is mostly good for split pushing which is not done that often, also if you fall behind early it is really hard to get back into the game.


my thoughts on your question


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AcCoUn7

Member

12-19-2012

And instead of doing more and more champions why not focus on the forgotten ones? I mean, there are already like 110 champions but we only see the same 30 every tournament or even in ranked.


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Moomba

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12-19-2012

Leave Sion the way he is please, was annoying enough when you nerfed he AP ratios (boohoo .1 isn't much I know but was still something) a while back, he's fine the way he is, people just try and play him AD when melee AD really doesn't have much of a place these days (same as the whole Tryn, Yi, Fiora problem). AP Sion top or mid, heck I even try support bottom for fun some times, and it does just fine.


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Jarvan Krislov

Senior Member

12-19-2012

Any word on Darius?


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Dunderdase

Member

12-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by AcCoUn7 View Post
And instead of doing more and more champions why not focus on the forgotten ones? I mean, there are already like 110 champions but we only see the same 30 every tournament or even in ranked.
Because they are designed wrongly and if you are going to remake most of a whole champion why not just make a new one to add diversity?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MPonder View Post
The thread went to a different direction talking about melee carries. I my humble opnion, I would never want to see Tryndamere or Master Yi become viable.

I really don't think would be fun to play against a champion that has 5 sec of godlike mode with one of the best stats of the game. Nor I would like to see Master Yi, sorry, but Master Yi does a good amount of damage in a short time.

What people want to say when they talk about viability? Tournaments? Rankeds? You can play Tryndamere and Master Yi, and you can win games with them. You just need to think like any other pick, if they will fit the team comp or if they are not a bad choice against the enemy team Comp.

Of course, there are better options of champions to do the role and go to the lane which they would go, but It is not about what is better, it is about what you want to play.

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And this thing about Jax not been a carry. Oh well, he is not a carry, he is a hyper-carry. Even on championships, you listen to the casters saying this. Jax skill set is just too good, you can say that he is a carry, a bruiser, a fighter, and you would not be wrong for saying this.

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I would like to understand why Riot nerfed Rengar and Diana. Because of how many times they were picked/banned in championships, or because of GD. I really don't think that GD opnion should really affect too much this kind of decision. You will always see GD crying about the FotM. There was a time that GD was full of Riven QQ threads. Fortunately, she didn't got nerfed that time. Hope it is not because of win rate. Amumu is one of the champions with more win rate for a long time.

There will always be champions that become first pick in ranked unless they are banned, if it is not Diana anymore the one roaming to your lane and killing you, it will be Eve, Ahri, etc. A long time ago, there was Sion, just looking to the past, you see that I'm right. And Sion was never considered "viable" and yet got nerfed, even if it was just 0.1 in his ratios because of GD QQs. Now, Sion is completily forgotten, even though, he can do the same yet. Well, there are better options, well, I don't know.

And Riot never thought on Diana and Rengar weakness. When I see their nerfs, All I see is that they only looked at their strengths. Riot should not only analize where they were good, but their weakness before they nerf champions, analise matches they did good, and matches that they didn't, and thinking better before nerfing a champion

Like Diana, playing her at middle. I really didn't played any normal/ranked game after the patch.

But let's see her weakness. She is melee, you can classify her as a Fighter, Assassin, APC. As a melee champion playing in middle, my first levels and farm are really difficult, more difficult against strong harass champions, like Zigs, Vlad, Ryze, Orianna, Zyra, but after level 6, things start to become better. She is an assassin that go balls deep, and if she can't kill some one, she is pretty much dead. As an assassin, she does more damage the closer she is to the champions, so she needs a way to go in. And like all assassin, she has problem against tank teams, more than usual APC have.

Now look at her strenghts before nerfs, some may be yet true or not. She had good stats, good base damage, good ratios, she had a way to go to the target, a way to stick to it, a way to initiate.

Now Riot already nerfed her damage, ratios and tankness. So, now her lane phase if more difficult. Now if she goes balls deep, she wont do the same damage, and won't handle the same amount of damage. Riot nerfed her ranges, now it is more difficult to stick in to the target and do damage to it

Nerfing only the strengths and not trying to balance with some buffs in her weakness.
You are wrong.
Quote:
What people want to say when they talk about viability? Tournaments? Rankeds? You can play Tryndamere and Master Yi, and you can win games with them. You just need to think like any other pick, if they will fit the team comp or if they are not a bad choice against the enemy team Comp.
You press the one stun button and both of these champions are completely useless.
Now, I take it you haven't played DotA, The predecessor and more balanced version of this game with a more serious competitive scene. BUT, In DotA you have both melee and ranged carries working out just fine both being equally good. Most melee carries has blinks but no other hero has flash, How come this is balanced if having a blink in league where everyone has flash wouldn't?

Quote:
And this thing about Jax not been a carry. Oh well, he is not a carry, he is a hyper-carry. Even on championships, you listen to the casters saying this. Jax skill set is just too good, you can say that he is a carry, a bruiser, a fighter, and you would not be wrong for saying this.
He is not a hyper-carry regardless of how many times people say that he is. He does not need items to be effective and does not scale very well with them. He scales with attack speed, attack damage and ability power whilst dealing both magical and physical damage. This is the reason that he is not a hyper carry. He doesn't get close to the damage of real carries with his item-builds. You could build him like a carry and go for the PD and BT/IE to deal massive damage but then you would be useless because there is no way to be effective that way. If jax were a hyper-carry he would be put bottom with a support to ensure the maximum amount of farm to him. Instead you put him at top and build trinity force and GA. Sure, you can build Jax as a "Hyper-Carry" but that version of Jax isn't viable in any aspect and in that area he already scales of poor stats that requires him to go for sub-optimal builds to gain the most damage.

Quote:
I really don't think would be fun to play against a champion that has 5 sec of godlike mode with one of the best stats of the game. Nor I would like to see Master Yi, sorry, but Master Yi does a good amount of damage in a short time.
You're not supposed to get high base values. Please google the word "Carry". Master Yi and Tryndamere get high base values because of riot's poor implementation of both items and mechanics. The only way to make them usable is to give them high base values. You're not supposed to be super crapped on by a ranged hero in a support lane though since there is no jungle to be farmed for a melee hero in this game.

You should try working on your opinions and making them good because right now you're wrong on all aspects. Not that you had a real point either way, all you basically said was "I don't like them" which is pretty odd seeing as you probably have never played a melee champion. You're one of these guys who complain about stuff being "anti-fun" in a supposedly competitive game. It's not about fun. People play this game as a job, people stream this game as a job.


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Blaine Tog

Senior Member

12-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
No, it's a good question - I think about this a lot. I'd like them to be good because it's a new way to experience the game that might not have to be fundamentally broken. It's one of those problems that has low impact now, but would let us make the game better if we can sit down and tackle it. It's been tough to justify, to myself, prioritizing it over the other things we've been working on.
If melee ADCs were fixed, you'd probably see a lot more Headmistress Fioras around.

So, maybe you should take that into account the next time you prioritize projects.


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The Scotsman

Junior Member

12-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post

Jarvan IV Whoa, this guy's a beast right now. I think he has some design flaws, though.
Make enemies who blink/flash/whatever out of his ultimate get some kind of "Coward" debuff.


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Arcolyte

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Senior Member

12-19-2012

Morello

Have you ever considered a CC conversion type effect, I imagine it would fit on tryn if one existed on a current champ. Something to the effect of If stunned, rooted and silenced, if rooted then slowed, slows/silences ignored/reduced? Rage OP.


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Seven Score

Senior Member

12-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
The entire design intent of Zyra is to exemplify her plants. In a perfect world, she'd be tuned in favor of CC and plant power, and dialed down on burst and raw mage power. This is the direction I'd like to see the character go.
Noooo! I hate support Zyra. I want to play her mid. Please don't make me support with her. And this coming from someone who prefers supporting to going mid.


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SpAceWaffLeS

Senior Member

12-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Sure!

Nasus Unsure - might have fatal flaws, might just be because overtuned metagolems.[/
IMO

Nasus kit is super fun, especially for those that enjoy farming. I love it.

But unfortunately I believe he has some serious design flaws due to the current meta and the way the game is going.

Because of the nature of his Siphoning Strike, he must use it on minions often to keep up in strength with other top laners. In order to do this:

1. He has no abilities left to harass the other top laner (after taking some serious harass himself).
2. He has no spare mana to harass or protect himself with W or E.
3. He is also very kiteable due to the crazy mobility creep on this game, even with having one of the best slows in the game.

Anytime one goes against a Nasus, they should harass him every chance they get, either he harasses you back and cannot grow his Q, or he doesn't harass you back and you kick him out of lane... either way you will outscale him hard because of this.

The only time a Nasus can be strong is against a few champs or if you leave him alone/has camping jungler.

I believe the design problem is that it is tough to buff his early game without making him too strong later.

Here are some possible things I suggest that I believe would give him more viability laning, while not being too strong of a buff lategame (not all of these applied at once, separately).

1. Buff his passive/base HP/MP regen (not his passive lifesteal, as this would be too strong later.)

2. Lower mana cost on Siphoning Strike (OR, return some mana when siphoning strike kills an enemy). As long as CDR is the same, it will not yield him anymore damage, just make it so he can actually level up his Siphoning Strike early in the game and still have mana left to use his other skills.

3. Small increase on Q range. This would help with his farming early and his kiteability. The range would have to be small or else it would be very powerful, but I think a tiny increase would not be OP at all, yet still allow Nasus to farm up his Q without being harassed out of lane.

4. Add a low-damage (small ap ratio) DoT effect to Wither. This would allow Nasus to return some harassment without having to sacrifice leveling up Q. It would not be too strong though due to mana costs early, and late game it wouldn't be very OP due to it having an AP ratio (would also give slight posibility for AP/Hybrid nasus!).