@Morello, can you explain the design philosophy used for nerfing champions?

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Fox P McCloud

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Senior Member

12-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
we can't make glass cannon melee good.
They're already not good, Morello =/

There's also only 3 of them, which is a huge bone of contention I have with you guys over at Riot--you talk about how supports get left out in the rain and how few of them there are (but sticking to about 2 per year); it took 2.5 years for LoL to get a single new melee carry and she doesn't really offer any niche/new/neat gimmick over the other two melee carries.

Of all the classes in LoL melee ADCs are the most homogenous, lack a niche and have very similar mechancis (AS steroid, MS steroid, gap closer, some AoE damage, 35-70 flat AD, and some survivability steroid...Tryn being the exception on MS which is made up for by an AoE slow....and no AS which is made up for with crit). This contrasts sharply with ranged ADC who, with a few exceptions, have little overlap and each have neat/exciting niches while retaining the flavor of "single high target DPS".


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Redgar

Senior Member

12-19-2012

why you gave to rengar the ability of double cast? imo that was the real problem with him, you should just remove that problematic mechanism and just leave the bonus ferocity, but not cast again the same ability with no cd, now you overnerfed him trying to nerf top lane rengar and you KILLED jungler rengar and now he is incredible boring to play, overnerfing his ultimate was a big mistake.


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KlaxonRT

Member

12-19-2012

For any riot employees reading this, please help out this awesome guy this year. His name is League°âLegends, and he posted a thread on general discussion called 'My christmas giveaway' and all he has been doing is giving away free skins and champions and RP to anyone who asks him to. All he wants is to play a game or two with anywhere from 1-5 riot employees. if its possible and you can do it please message him, if not could you at least let him know so he knows we tried to help him back. Thanks
Morello you seem nice maybe help him out a bit please. btw i believe akali jump should be a little slower to get to them.


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High Rune

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12-19-2012

Would like to see another thread based on design philosophy used on buffing champions

morello, why hasn't akali been touched at all? not saying she needs nerfs or buffs, but do you guys feel she's 'right' at the moment?
what stops you from buffing her exactly?

and could you elaborate on why her q damage was nerfed by 5 on cast and 5 on hit a long time ago as opposed to anything else on her kit o.O?

just a big fan of akali, would like to know some of your guys' thoughts on her.

also fix her bug again pls qq.
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=2031589


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anAmishLady

Senior Member

12-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
It's not hard, but, for example, you remove the little gameplay that Heimerdinger's E has already - that skill has almost 0 gameplay associated to it at all. In this case, that would buff the character, but then make us feel bad if he ever was popular. Buffs and nerfs, in my mind, are less important than gameplay patterns and play/counter-play between champions.

ASpd slows have one specific purpose - debuff ADC/some fighter damage. If you want a character to do that, then they should lower attack speed. If you don't, then it's superfluous.
Having Heimer's rockets prioritize champs......is a no-brainer! I've never played him, so I always assumed they did... This is incredible to learn.

Also, lots of cold things in this game lower movement speed and attack speed -- Nunu's snowball for instance. Why not let Sejuani lower AS too? She's cold. And it would make for an extra dimension of play for her. She might even become a top tier champ...


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Tryphikik

Senior Member

12-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Jax is a fighter, and the distinction is the tools we let him have - things like a stun and beefiness (as well as non-DPS build paths that make sense) make him a fighter. I'm actually worried that by making those guys so good, we can't make glass cannon melee good.
I don't see how you could, with the amount of damage someone like Jax can deal with a mixed build, why in the world would anyone ever want glass cannon melee, which in and of itself is a questionable asset to the team.

The only one I think has true potential without doing completely broken damage is Trynd, and that is just because when Trynd is strong, his ulti is broken, so he always has potential.


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Morello

Lead Designer

12-19-2012
32 of 32 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinDelMarr View Post
Do melee glass cannons (like Fiora, Master Yi, Tryndamere) have to exist? Like is there an omnipotent rule that this type of class can never be removed? A class with what seems to be so many underlying problems. Do you believe their problems can be fixed, is it worth the effort? Would changing Fiora, Master Yi, Tryndamere into fighters, along the direction of Jax in some regards ruin the diversity and customization we all love? Am I asking too many questions? This seems to be more relevant to another Thread (something I would be very interested in having) so I won't continue after this. I just can't shake the idea of Jax being a strengthened carry. To each his own
No, it's a good question - I think about this a lot. I'd like them to be good because it's a new way to experience the game that might not have to be fundamentally broken. It's one of those problems that has low impact now, but would let us make the game better if we can sit down and tackle it. It's been tough to justify, to myself, prioritizing it over the other things we've been working on.


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ElementzPRO

Senior Member

12-19-2012

Yo morello you guys are seriously going to need to look into the health regen mastery

With that and base hp regen most tanky dps can have around 15 hp regen per 5 early levels

It is very early in the tree at the very start actually and has no answer from the offense tree. To me this means its going to be very hard to lane an AP carry against a fighter this season because I know theyre just going to heal back all my poke with hp pots natural hp regen and the hp gained from leveling up. It becomes near impossible for an AP to kill a fighter in lane.

This is going to be the minion damage block mastery all over again mark my words.


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xPheer

Senior Member

12-19-2012

I'd really love to hear your opinion on vayne at the moment. I understand nerfing ADC's as a whole was a goal this patch, however it's not affecting all AD's in a similar way. While they are all overally nerfed because items like PD aren't as good anymore, they all have an ability to poke or do burst damage that doesn't rely on attack speed.

Graves Q R
Cait Q R
Draven Q E R
Ashe W R
MF Q
Kog Q E R and so on.

However vayne is different, every AD ratio she has on her abilities rely on autoattacking, her true damage relies on autoattacking, her ultimate relies on autoattacking and her tumble isn't really a poking ability (it's an autoattack damage amplifier at the same range). She is WITHOUT A DOUBT unplayable at a competitive level anymore and is by far the worse AD to pick in any situation even in soloq. I'm not a competitive player but I love vayne's kit and is by far my favorite champion because she has a high skill cap, a fun playstyle and very rewarding when played well. But I just can't find a single reason why I would pick her in a ranked game over some other AD who either stomps lane or is still very strong late game without having such a bad laning phase.

She wasn't nerfed only late game, she was nerfed early game aswell. Berseker's greaves attack speed is more important on vayne than other AD's because damage and attack speed are her only trading tools early game (later she gets crit). Doran's life steal no longer scales so it's a waste of gold on her and vamp scepter is more expensive than before. (she needs life steal more than other ad's because she is squishy and has no poke). Vayne only starts becoming good when she gets 2k gold (boots 2, 2 dorans, scepter) for 160 hp, 25% attack speed, 20 AD and 19% life steal. This is no longer the case with this patch.


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Higgly

Senior Member

12-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Well, that seems like that's untrue, looking at the numbers, it was just so far before, and when we toned it to the particle range, it feels small.

I wonder what the reaction would have been had it started at the "proper" range to begin with. It's tough because once players get used to something that's not right, it's hard to change without causing quite a bit of disruption.

I will have Statikk (who is doing our balance patch stuff these days) take a look at the numbers just to be sure, though.
Shouldn't Ezreal's Mystic shot hitbox be fixed by same logic then? It's definitely bigger than its particle.