@Riot - An issue with your recent Champion Design

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Zan Vorez

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Senior Member

12-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by X74X View Post
None of the champions you listed are "naturally insanely tanky", in fact the only way they can be tanky is by sacrificing their high damage output, or if you fed them so much that they just have THAT much more of a gold/level advantage than you. Have you ever considered the fact that Diana's all magic damage/AP based, and that you should probably build magic resist against her? She's a clone of Akali, treat her as such, she does good damage and is durable, but nowhere near as much as a tank unless you fed the hell out of her early game. It's not that she's dealing insane damage while being tanky, it's that you're probably doing absolutely nothing to stop her, or just doing it completely wrong.

Jayce was just nerfed recently and is no longer as godlike as he used to be. Once again, build proper defense and he's not that bad. He's not supposed to be an easy champion to fight, as with all champions.

Riven, I really hope you're kidding. She's not tanky at all, and her shield really doesn't last that long. Have you ever seen a Riven get focused? It's hilarious, and they die quicker than some of the squishiest champs in the game because they have to be RIGHT in their face. She's is SOLELY reliant on damage, if she builds armor, she dies because she can't have that damage output she's sacrificing for it. Build decent amounts of armor early game and watch her die to every gank you pull that has even the slightest bit of cc, or just pick Malphite and laugh as she can't do anything to you. Unless of course, you feed her, which by the sounds of it, you do. I also like how you say that in theory she doesn't need boots, because aside from being completely reliant on AD, she's also completely reliant on mobility due to the fact that cc DESTROYS her.


Lol, Darius. No. I'm not going over this again.

Rengar is now forced to build tanky to survive, therefore giving him much less damage than he had a long time ago. Would you prefer getting bursted down in 3 seconds at level 1, or being able to survive the laning phase to rape him later?

Vi will not be tanky; she can build for a bit of survival, but if you've read the PBE forums you'd have known by now that she can't survive that long in teamfights, much like Diana and Riven.

People like you ARE the toxic behavior. Vi hasn't even been released yet and you're already preemptively making assumptions.
If Diana really wasn't such a problem, then why did Riot nerf her so much? You think they just hit a champ so hard without good reason? She had high health but was an assassin in damage output and spammability, and had a refreshable shield that did damage. Having the damage output of an assassin but the survivability of a bruiser is a terrible idea.

Again, Jayce got nerfed thus showing there was indeed an issue with him.

Same argument for Rengar? Are you TRYING to prove my point here?

Riven has a shield that scales incredibly well with AD, and her ultimate increases her AD. Unless I'm mistaken, the person who developed her has recanted his idea and mentioned that giving her a shield that scales well with AD is the worst idea for her.

My post is not to point out that these champions are still OP, most of which no longer are thanks to the ever so popular nerfbat... but that developing champions with these traits are bound to find a way to be abused somehow since they simply have too much going for them with too little of a drawback associated with them. I'm saying to save the time and energy trying to rebalance champions after a nerf and people are familiar with a particular play style (ie: facerolling) and simply aim for characters that have legitimate tradeoffs. High base stats with good mobility or counter-mobility kits are dangerous waters to tread. (Think what it would be like to give Leblanc or Talon the health scaling that Diana receives, or the shields that Diana and Riven get that scales off of AP and AD respectively. Disaster.)


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X74

Senior Member

12-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zan Vorez View Post
If Diana really wasn't such a problem, then why did Riot nerf her so much? You think they just hit a champ so hard without good reason? She had high health but was an assassin in damage output and spammability, and had a refreshable shield that did damage. Having the damage output of an assassin but the survivability of a bruiser is a terrible idea.

Again, Jayce got nerfed thus showing there was indeed an issue with him.

Same argument for Rengar? Are you TRYING to prove my point here?

Riven has a shield that scales incredibly well with AD, and her ultimate increases her AD. Unless I'm mistaken, the person who developed her has recanted his idea and mentioned that giving her a shield that scales well with AD is the worst idea for her.

My post is not to point out that these champions are still OP, most of which no longer are thanks to the ever so popular nerfbat... but that developing champions with these traits are bound to find a way to be abused somehow since they simply have too much going for them with too little of a drawback associated with them. I'm saying to save the time and energy trying to rebalance champions after a nerf and people are familiar with a particular play style (ie: facerolling) and simply aim for characters that have legitimate tradeoffs. High base stats with good mobility or counter-mobility kits are dangerous waters to tread. (Think what it would be like to give Leblanc or Talon the health scaling that Diana receives, or the shields that Diana and Riven get that scales off of AP and AD respectively. Disaster.)
Diana was borderline OP on release, I never disagreed with that, but after her nerfs so long ago, (and not this one, I mean before) she's been fine. Also, there's a fine line that makes survivability of a bruiser and damage of an assassin balanced, but while having none of those two traits as good as a full-blown counterpart of the same attribute, like, say, Akali. She can FAR outdamage Diana, and Volibear is FAR tankier than Diana. A little bit of both, yet watered down, isn't unbalanced. I go towards the theory that I discussed in this thread I posted here, which, if you care to read, I hope you come to an agreement with, as to why Riot nerfed her the way they did:

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=2913540

Jayce GOT nerfed and as I said, I never said they weren't OP on release. Phreak actually addressed this once. He said he likes releasing champs a bit OP because it's easier to balance them afterwards than if they're UP. All of the champions you're discussing will eventually get their balance, including Vi if it's necessary. Therefore, Jayce is no longer a problem, so there's no need to still be bringing up champions like him.

Rengar lacks the damage he used to have and is forced to build tanky. Yes, that's my argument, he's no longer a problem. He WAS, but isn't anymore. So you shouldn't be complaining about him anymore. I'll refer back to Phreak's quote for this one.

Riven's shield really isn't that great. I know it seems like a lot due to the scaling potential of it, but you need to understand that to make that shield stronger, she has to sacrifice things like armor and magic resist that would make her tankier otherwise, for AD, hence how she is strong, but able to survive just a BIT more than an assassin, while an assassin can still do more damage. The shield leeches off of her potential to have tons of MR and Armor by being the only survivability she has, which scales with AD, and if it didn't, she'd be pretty useless because she's ONLY melee AD, and she'll die way too fast. By making her shield AP, you're giving her 0 options to build any survivability/damage combination, because if she builds armor/mr instead, she loses damage, and if she builds AP for her shield, she loses damage, but if she builds damage, she dies because she can't take any hits. It doesn't last as long as it looks; that shield is a health equivalent, and health doesn't make you tanky. It should be common for a team to have a bursty champion on it somewhere; that's what top lane matchups are for. That shield is usually the only thing that allows Riven to stay afloat in teamfights, and as soon as it goes down, or something brings her movement or damage focus to a halt, so does she. Make the process faster by getting a high-damage champion.

I'll reply to your last paragraph with Phreak's ideology for releasing champions. He says he likes them a little OP upon release rather than UP because it's easier to tweak them into balance that way. If it's the case with Vi, she'll get hers.


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Nea De Penserhir

Senior Member

12-18-2012

Baddies being maddies.


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Zan Vorez

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Senior Member

12-18-2012

Oh, I completely forgot to mention the champion that practically embodies the issues I have with these types of champions: Irelia. There's a reason that the meme "better nerf Irelia" came around, and it's because her kit and her survivability combined with her high base stats made her a real problem to balance properly.

It also boils down to the issue of Riot popping out new champions like they are working an assembly line. Yes, variety is good in a game like this... but I think it's important to pay attention to all your champions and fix their glaring flaws instead of continually coming out with more. It's not like people are going to quit league because you stop forcing new champions on us bi-weekly. If anything, they'd be making the game better overall. A more fun experience than overdosing us with new champs.


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CerealBoxOfDoom

Senior Member

12-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zan Vorez View Post
Oh, I completely forgot to mention the champion that practically embodies the issues I have with these types of champions: Irelia. There's a reason that the meme "better nerf Irelia" came around, and it's because her kit and her survivability combined with her high base stats made her a real problem to balance properly.

It also boils down to the issue of Riot popping out new champions like they are working an assembly line. Yes, variety is good in a game like this... but I think it's important to pay attention to all your champions and fix their glaring flaws instead of continually coming out with more. It's not like people are going to quit league because you stop forcing new champions on us bi-weekly. If anything, they'd be making the game better overall. A more fun experience than overdosing us with new champs.
Irelia's more recent nerf was the result of changing times and earlier one's had to do with how fun she was to play against, not flat out imbalance. Not all nerfs are for balance.

Irelia was literally nerfed for being annoying at one point or at least thats the claim made by morello.

Another time she was nerfed as a result of the mass persecution of all things sustain. They wanted to make the game less passive so they changed how the game works and thus had to make many adjustments. I think this resulted in one of irelia's buffs later on.

The term "better nerf irelia" was a meme formed by the popular misconception that morello has absolute power over all nerfs and balancing and he has this illogical tendancy to nerf irelia for seemingly random reasons.

Sustain lanes too annoying? Thinking about this, it does make sense, but at the end of the the day the big story is that irelia is getting nerfed as a result.

Increasing the risk for reward? better nerf irelia again I guess...

Irelia does many things so when any "thing" gets nerfed irelia gets the shaft "or she used to" and she would get nerfed and people would joke about it and she'd continue to dominate because she was a flexible champ not because she was particularily strong with perfect play


A better champion for your example might actually be shen or even better would be alistar if youre willing to go further.


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Quib

Senior Member

12-18-2012

This thread went to **** long before I get here, but I have one thing to say to you. If you're going to discuss issues with recent champion design, you really oughta talk about recently released champions.


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Jasta007

Member

12-19-2012

What about Nami... she's squishy as hell...


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SeiYouSiLa

Senior Member

12-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by CerealBoxOfDoom View Post
Diana wan't nerfed into the ground, they just broke her W, real diana players shouldn't have any problem landing her new ult. Most of her damage is from on-hit effects anyways and she just got a ton of new itemization. She's just losing games now because people insist on playing her in ways she was never meant to be played in the first place. I'm ****ing sick of people giving me that "hurrdurr diana jungle????" whenever I que her
Clearly you don't play Diana so stfu and stop pretending that you know sh*t, yea you're right, landing her new ult isn't the problem but can you make her shield proc at melee range? NO. Let me tell you what that does, it removes Diana's ability to give instant burst like she was designed to be.

You're only happy with the Diana nerfs because you got your face f*cked by a decent Diana player, so go back and play with Beginner bots where you can't face a Diana


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SeiYouSiLa

Senior Member

12-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zan Vorez View Post
Don't feed the trolls.
you're a dumb f*ck and need to stfu


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Gentleman Helios

Member

12-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeiYouSiLa View Post
Clearly you don't play Diana so stfu and stop pretending that you know sh*t, yea you're right, landing her new ult isn't the problem but can you make her shield proc at melee range? NO. Let me tell you what that does, it removes Diana's ability to give instant burst like she was designed to be.

You're only happy with the Diana nerfs because you got your face f*cked by a decent Diana player, so go back and play with Beginner bots where you can't face a Diana
Did you even read his post? He said that they broke her w. Which last I checked was her shield. So you basically completely agreed with him and told him to STFU.


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