Playing Bot and Ganking

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naotasan

Senior Member

12-17-2012

There are so many things wrong with the OP post.
I would list every single one of them and have a counter argument, but I would like to have some time to do things today.


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VegaTDM

Senior Member

12-18-2012

Will edit OP in a min.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DiscworldDeath View Post
Oy, this post is so full of wrong. Every day my desire to make a post about the bot laner schizophrenia (if you gank bot - I'm doing fine. If you don't gank bot, "I got ganked, of course I lost).

Gank bot. Gank bot all day long.

Gank, and gank again.
The earlier it is in the game, gank more! Just don't kill creeps if you gank early, even just making it so the enemy bot laner can't get xp/gold but your bot laner gets all the creeps is worth it. Bot lane CAN snowball, so if you get your bot laner 2 levels ahead, you're likely not going to need to gank more, and they are going to often have to send 2 bot just to hold, not to take your point even.

Gank bot all day, every day. This line, right here? Worth 200-400 Elo, easy.

* Gank bot lane doesn't mean staying there endlessly. But if I stay to help you, and you go B, I'm staying there till you come back. It's not me switching with you. Come back, let me go back top.
I was not saying ganking bot is bad, I am saying if we are losing top then don't gank bot. A lot of times people come bot to help when I don't need the help and they could be better served helping take/defend top.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FOODFOOD View Post
I disagree with this pretty passionately. I used to think this, but as I rose in elo, this is less and less true. If no one is standing at the Windmill, it's because they're standing near the Windmill, waiting to kill you.

Also, bot is INCREDIBLY important. Some people even go so far as to say that bot lane wins every game. Seriously, gank bot. A lot. Then do it again.
Obviously watch the map and don't try and cap it when there are 4 mia. But if you see 4 top and 1 bot and you happen to be standing by their mid, cap it.

Not saying bot isn't important. Bot can set the control of the whole game. See above point.


Quote:
Originally Posted by KaWraith View Post
here is my humble 2000+ ELO opinion from playing a LOT of bot lane....

the game is about point control: if your gank doesn't secure the bot point, or cause so much confusion on the enemy team that you can retake top; you wasted your trip.

9 times out of 10, I would rather someone just walked over and took the enemy bot point, instead of trying to kill the enemy bot laner.
This times 9001. I hate it when someone ganks bot when I was doing fine. Then doesn't really do anything except harass, all while we are 3v4 at top over who gets the top point. Capping the point instead of ganking helps too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orphane View Post
Someone doesn't know about the MMKH flowchart
Care to explain?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fabs457 View Post
If you don't see all their enemy champs already on the map (and they aren't on death CD), you cannot assume you can simply just cap one of their towers.

Normally you should assume they are in the bush or are going to gank your own bot. If you're caught out alone applying pressure to a lane that can be reversed pretty easily (they are not AI Bots), you're leaving your own team at a disadvantage. Nothing pisses me off more about blindpick than seeing my teammates die in between top and the opposing mid. It leads towards seeing our top lost/enemies inevitably heading down bot to gank me.
Right, but if you DO see them. You can assume that and can cap it, which is what I was talking about.

I push bot, but normally don't cap it unless I get a kill. If I die that is a free cap for the enemy team, so I hang back, harass and let the minions push.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cocacolalips View Post
2V1 is easier than 4V4.

If you can't cap top, there's not much point in insisting over and over; make the plays happen. ;D
But when it is 2v1 bot it is 3v4 top. And if top isn't capped and the rest of the team is fighting for it, why are you in my lane?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kirillian View Post
The issue with this statement is that you are playing Yorick. You are a 1 man pushing machine. Very few bot laners can keep up with your pushing potential. Any other botlaner has to deal with reality...they can't push bot turret all day long and force 1v2s in EVERY game. You can. So, your viewpoint is slightly skewed from this. It's actually as others have said. Ganking botlane is VERY important and helps. Besides, if ganking botlane gains you 2 lvls+ on the other laner, a lane swap or 1v2 perma lane is incoming. Nothing helps your team more than getting that 1v2 lane permanently. If they can't neutralize your turret from that 1v2 lane and/or you can consistently duel 1 or both of them (looking at you Jax...), then your top lane is GOLDEN.
I play a lot of Yorick, but I also play Graves, Mord and tons of other tanky champs bot. Mainly good pushers and high defense champs. But I do see what you mean, I rarely lose my point bot unless I die. But I see people all the time that "gank bot" and don't do anything to further to match and just cause a man disadvantage bot.

Communicating with your teammates is core to winning any game. And I hurts the team when I have to type "Go top Jax, They need your help top and I dont need it bot. If I need a gank I will ping and ask for one thanks." Every time he respawns. Teammates will just camp my lane if they are doing bad top and do nothing but overextend and die.


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Sakuri Ono

Senior Member

12-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by DiscworldDeath View Post
But if I stay to help you, and you go B, I'm staying there till you come back. It's not me switching with you. Come back, let me go back top.
Some much this.

I have no idea why there's been a rash of people lately who think my Hec coming down to clean house means I want the lane. >.<;


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DiscworldDeath

Senior Member

12-18-2012

Actually, the best time to gank bot is just after losing top, when the enemy is still top. It's about resource allocation. If I can't help top (such as fighting 4v4 on a point they control), then the best thing I can do is gank bottom.

Just banging my head against the wall won't help top, so I go bot, and then they come bot, and then the situation on the map changes, creating opportunities for change.


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kirillian

Senior Member

12-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by VegaTDM View Post
Will edit OP in a min.



I was not saying ganking bot is bad, I am saying if we are losing top then don't gank bot. A lot of times people come bot to help when I don't need the help and they could be better served helping take/defend top.



Obviously watch the map and don't try and cap it when there are 4 mia. But if you see 4 top and 1 bot and you happen to be standing by their mid, cap it.

Not saying bot isn't important. Bot can set the control of the whole game. See above point.




This times 9001. I hate it when someone ganks bot when I was doing fine. Then doesn't really do anything except harass, all while we are 3v4 at top over who gets the top point. Capping the point instead of ganking helps too.



Care to explain?



Right, but if you DO see them. You can assume that and can cap it, which is what I was talking about.

I push bot, but normally don't cap it unless I get a kill. If I die that is a free cap for the enemy team, so I hang back, harass and let the minions push.



But when it is 2v1 bot it is 3v4 top. And if top isn't capped and the rest of the team is fighting for it, why are you in my lane?



I play a lot of Yorick, but I also play Graves, Mord and tons of other tanky champs bot. Mainly good pushers and high defense champs. But I do see what you mean, I rarely lose my point bot unless I die. But I see people all the time that "gank bot" and don't do anything to further to match and just cause a man disadvantage bot.

Communicating with your teammates is core to winning any game. And I hurts the team when I have to type "Go top Jax, They need your help top and I dont need it bot. If I need a gank I will ping and ask for one thanks." Every time he respawns. Teammates will just camp my lane if they are doing bad top and do nothing but overextend and die.
If some dude camps ur lane, instead of griping about it...take advantage of it...you CANT change his playstyle...but you CAN change urs...take advantage...bait ur opponent or push that tower HARD...try and force that fight...Jax is a great fighter for example...you WANT to fight when he's around...don't waste his time by not taking advantage of it. Now YOU are contributing to the team's downfall...if he's bot...he's already committed that time. You can't change that...by making him back without doing anything, you've just wasted even more time.


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naotasan

Senior Member

12-18-2012

Okay I got some time. Let's break this down!

Quote:
Originally Posted by VegaTDM View Post
Point Priority is
Mid > Bot > Top > Enemy Bot > Enemy Mid.


This means,

If we don't currently have top I don't want to see you in my lane unless they are 4 man ganking me on point. Ganking bot when I don't need help creates a 1 man disadvantage top, making it that much harder to keep/cap the point.
If the enemy sends extra people bot to gank me and we dont have top tower, go cap it while we have the man advantage. If I need help I will ask for it.
This is highly situational. If I see 4 men top that just destroyed my 3 team mates defending top, I'm not going to suicide in a 4v1 lost cause. I'm going to gank bottom and force them to react.
Additionally, putting points at higher priorities than others without a proper explanation is just strange to me. For example. I have no problem losing bottom lane if that means we get to complete the quest by capturing top.

Quote:
Unless bot asks for help, or is in danger or being Capped(not neturalized) you time is probably better spent top. If you need to roam then backcap them.
Just going to put this out here.
If you are visible on the map when you are not defending a point, something is horribly wrong. I constantly hide in the Fog of War just outside of a point so I can defend the jungle and quickly react to any possible back caps or ganks by staying near the speed shrine.

Quote:
All around pointers:
If no one is currently standing on a point, CAP IT.
No. No no no. Horrible idea. This is only acceptable if the enemy is on death timers or all of them are visible. Back capping just because nobody is on a point is a quick way to get a respawn timer.

Quote:
If the enemy team sends 5 people top. Bot better be capping the enemy bot.
5 top? What the hell? That's as rare as a Pentakill without a Karthus. The only time all 5 people should be together is an epic gank bottom (to get the quest) or if you or the enemy team is pushing hard against the spawn ramp.
But that goes without question. If you have an objective and no one is stopping you from completing this objective, why are you wasting time on minions?
While you have a valid point, I never see this at my level of play.

Quote:
Watch the minimap, and pay attention to where each enemy goes, heading people off with ganks is very easy in Dom since you can all hide in brush and bait with speed shrine.
This is actually good advice. Bushwacking while waiting for a single lone enemy to wander pass is a great way to get ahead in the game. Pressing Tab to see if all the players are highlighted (aka, visible to your team) can also help if you are back capping or ganking.



Quote:
TOP DOMINION SECRET
Dominion is all about pressure. Lane pressure and jungle pressure.
Pressure my top point as much as you want. You're not capturing it, and I'm delaying you from capturing it. All this time that I'm delaying you, your score is going down and I'm gaining the lead while you "pressure" a point.
Dominion is all about delay delay delay. Not pressure, this isn't SR where pushing a turret is "pressure".

Quote:
EXAMPLE: I usually play bot with Yorick. So I make it my goal to push as hard as I can, while being safe and not dying. My goal is to put bot in such a bad state, he has to ask for a gank. So either I push and kill him and/or take his point, or I create a man advantage top for my team.
This is the job of EVERY bottom laner. Yorick just happens to be one of the best at it making it easy. Sometimes you'll get a match up where you know you can't win, then your job becomes to stalemate the bottom lane match up - aka not capturing and not getting neutralized.

Quote:
I create pressure on bottom, but I don't die at all costs. Revive if I do to be back in lane before they can cap. Creating pressure in one lane lessens the pressure on another. Use this to make your enemys go where YOU want them. Being bot I can't gank top, ever. So I create pressure to hopefully either cap a point/or cause a man advantage top so that They will cap a point.
Your opinion of "pressure" is coming from a bottom lane perspective and not Dominion as a whole. The job of bottom is to force the other team to bring players down so it's easier for top lane (Pooters exploited this until people caught on)


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SylianEUW

Senior Member

12-18-2012

I decided to upvote because I don't want the thread closed. People tend to overuse downvotes in some cases, just because someone posts something inaccurate doesn't mean it has to be censored. Anyway...

If you get a gank for bot, that should mean that the enemy is forced to send 1-2 people bot to defend, thus meaning they will have a harder time defending top. If they don't do that, you should get their bot. That being said, ganking is not without risks. If it were, then people would gank all the time.


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kirillian

Senior Member

12-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by SylianEUW View Post
I decided to upvote because I don't want the thread closed. People tend to overuse downvotes in some cases, just because someone posts something inaccurate doesn't mean it has to be censored. Anyway...

If you get a gank for bot, that should mean that the enemy is forced to send 1-2 people bot to defend, thus meaning they will have a harder time defending top. If they don't do that, you should get their bot. That being said, ganking is not without risks. If it were, then people would gank all the time.
This is right. The POINT of ganking bot is to create uneven situations or perhaps gain their turret from your killing them. Sometimes this doesn't happen. If you continually gank bot and aren't creating any opportunities, then something needs to change. Reevaluate if your ganks are the problem or the bottom laner isn't engaging with you (Screw every one of you that sat there farming when I pinged multiple times and set up a perfect gank while climbing the solo queue ladder). Maybe don't gank again if it isn't going to help. If your ganks are super effective...consider parking your butt on a speed shrine and ganking ALL THE TIME until they swap someone out or double bot lane.

There is NEVER anything wrong with trying things out. But if something isn't going your way, change tactics...doing the same thing over and over is not going to win you the game if you haven't gotten anything for it yet. Same in top lane...if bashing your heads against the other team isn't winning you the game, try something else - like ganking botlane.


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Orphane

Senior Member

12-19-2012

MMKH flowchart

Losing top? Winning top? Losing bot? Winning bot? Nothing's happening? Enemy sighted by your teammates? Enemies mia?
--->
Gank bot.


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D HOLY BOT LANE

Junior Member

03-24-2014

This ****t is staying first page. screw all who dont like it.


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