for those who want FoN or a dedicated MR item...

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H0p0nP0p

Senior Member

12-16-2012

stop crying that they removed force of nature. it's not even that useful given the other items we got.

the MR items currently all have very powerful primary and secondary abilities...

do we really need a dedicated MR item? seems like the ones we have already has other pretty powerful stats with them. u can always put 2 together for more potency.

tdps can grab 3 of them (maw+ga+bulwark) and make use of it's other attributes.
apc just sits far and doesnt really matter... if they go close like eve, they can build tanky (roa+banshee+abbys) and have AP still.
adc just needs one of them (ga/banshee/merc scim) as they know where they should position.
supports got tons of hp+mr+active items.

now, tell me... y do u want a dedicated item for mr like FoN again? need health regen that badly? slap on a warmog then slap enemy team members.

-----ITEMS WITH MR-----

Runic Bulwark - jungler/top/tank
+400 Health +20 Armor +30 Magic Resist UNIQUE Aura - Legion: Nearby allies gain 10 Armor, 30 Magic Resist and 10 Health Regen per 5. (Unique Auras with the same name don't stack.)

Twin Shadow - support
+50 Ability Power +30 Magic Resistance +5% Movement Speed UNIQUE Active - Hunt: Summons up to 2 invulnerable ghosts for 6 seconds to seek the two nearest enemy champions. If they touch an enemy champion, they slow his Movement Speed by 40% and reveal him for 2.5 seconds - 120 second cooldown.

Mercurial Blade - jungle/top/tank/ADC/APC
+60 Attack Damage +45 Magic Resist UNIQUE Active - Quicksilver: Removes all debuffs from your champion. If your champion is Melee, this item also grants 50% bonus Movement Speed for 1 second - 90 second cooldown.

Mercury's Treads - n e one
+25 Magic Resist UNIQUE Passive - Enhanced Movement: +45 Movement Speed UNIQUE Passive - Tenacity: The duration of stuns, slows, taunts, fears, silences, blinds and immobilizes are reduced by 35%.

Mikael's Crucible - APC/support
+300 Mana +40 Magic Resist +9 Mana Regen per 5 seconds UNIQUE Passive - Mana Font: Increases your Mana Regen by 1% per 1% Mana you are missing. UNIQUE Active: Removes all stuns, roots, taunts, fears, silences and slows on an ally and heals them for 150 + 15% of their missing health - 180 second cooldown.

Maw's of Malmortius - jungler/top/adc
+55 Attack Damage +36 Magic Resist UNIQUE Passive: Gain +1 Attack Damage for every 2.5% of your Maximum Health you are missing. UNIQUE Passive - Lifeline: If you would take magic damage that would leave you at less than 30% Health, you first gain a shield that absorbs 400 magic damage for 5 seconds - 90 second cooldown.

Guardian Angel - n e one
+50 Armor +30 Magic Resist UNIQUE Passive: Revives your champion upon death, restoring 30% of your Maximum Health and Mana - 5 minute cooldown.

Abbysal Scepter - apc/support/tank
+70 Ability Power +45 Magic Resist UNIQUE Aura: Reduces the Magic Resist of nearby enemies by 20.

Athene's unholy grail - apc/support
+60 Ability Power +40 Magic Resist +15 Mana Regen per 5 seconds UNIQUE Passive: 15% Cooldown Reduction UNIQUE Passive: Restores 12% of your max Mana on Kill or Assist. UNIQUE Passive - Mana Font: Increases your Mana Regen by 1% per 1% Mana you are missing.

Banshee's Veil - n e one
+300 Health +300 Mana +45 Magic Resist UNIQUE Passive: Gain a spell shield that blocks the next incoming enemy ability. This shield refreshes if you haven't taken damage from champions in 25 seconds.

Spirit Visage - self sustains
+50 Magic Resist +200 Health +15% Cooldown Reduction UNIQUE Passive: Increases your healing, regeneration and drain effects on yourself by 20%


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TealNinje

Senior Member

12-16-2012

I used FoN because it provided 3 ideal stats. The highest effective regen per slot, the highest effective MR per slot, and the ONLY movespeed for tanks. If they had dropped movespeed to 4%, base regen by 50%, and MR by 50%, I would still have used the item, because the triumvirate of stats were that ideal on a tank in some capacity.


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H0p0nP0p

Senior Member

12-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by TealNinje View Post
I used FoN because it provided 3 ideal stats. The highest effective regen per slot, the highest effective MR per slot, and the ONLY movespeed for tanks. If they had dropped movespeed to 4%, base regen by 50%, and MR by 50%, I would still have used the item, because the triumvirate of stats were that ideal on a tank in some capacity.
hp regen - kinda useless end game... but if u want, there's hydra (tdps), shuryla (support), bulwark (top/jungle/tank), warmog (whomever).

movespeed for a tank - y do u need it? hecarim?? there's tons of other MS items. even the new boot enchants.


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OdiIon

Senior Member

12-16-2012

I posted a thread like this not to long ago.

na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=2868460

Pretty much most of what you said, plus math, and then some.

Unfortunately all the "new" items that provide MS are not very tasteful on Hecarim.

Twin Shadows is just, No.
Statshikk Shiv is just, No.
Zephyr why would I want that?(2850) Tenacity? CDR? AS I don't need since I'll be building Trinity? JUST MS? Not worth it. You'd be better off with Spirit of the Elder Lizard, better damage output anyways.
I've never used PD/Youmuu's on Hecarim and I don't intend to ever start.
I'm never buying Alacrity enchant because 500 MS Harder-Soft Cap kicks in before then.

Hecarim really lost alot of MS this season really. (12% from items, 2% from masteries.)


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TomStheTankEngin

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Senior Member

12-20-2012

First of all it wasn't JUST about the dedicated MR. We had that BEFORE the preseason. Banshee's Veil gave 50MR, HP and mana. The reason you need move speed on a tank is because tanks have the slowest movespeeds in the game with a very limited selection of range. You can't chase down the adc with a Phantom Dancer with a 345 base move(highest among all tanks, EVEN if you include Hec.) Tanks are supposed to peal the squishies, am I right? Well how do we do that with no movespeed? We could build things like Boots of Swiftness with Alacrity, but then have to itemize for the Tenacity. The problem wasn't the removal of the item itself, so much as the removal of the convenience of 3 things needed by a tank in one convenient item. The hp regen on Warmog's is great don't get me wrong,but taking up 3 items slots for what a single item used to do was just a hard hit.

Also, Hecarim isn't a dedicated tank. Just tanky.

Lastly... Merc Blade a tank item? What game are you playing? Even including Nasus, the number of AD tanks is almost nothing. If you're tanking as Nas(or ANY AD tank) the Merc Blade is hardly the first choice. Trinity Force is a better option for these guys for damage output, and the Active is not really that great. I mean no one bought Quicksilver Sash for a reason, a 90 second CD extra cleanse? I can count on one hand the number of times I have even saw Cleanse in the last season. And 50% movespeed for 1 second? ONE SECOND..... Oh look, I moved slightly to the left....


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Dark Kuno

Senior Member

12-20-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by OdiIon View Post
I posted a thread like this not to long ago.

na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=2868460

Pretty much most of what you said, plus math, and then some.

Unfortunately all the "new" items that provide MS are not very tasteful on Hecarim.

Twin Shadows is just, No.
Statshikk Shiv is just, No.
Zephyr why would I want that?(2850) Tenacity? CDR? AS I don't need since I'll be building Trinity? JUST MS? Not worth it. You'd be better off with Spirit of the Elder Lizard, better damage output anyways.
I've never used PD/Youmuu's on Hecarim and I don't intend to ever start.
I'm never buying Alacrity enchant because 500 MS Harder-Soft Cap kicks in before then.

Hecarim really lost alot of MS this season really. (12% from items, 2% from masteries.)

Actually Iceborn Guantlet is more effective on Hec than Trinity. It provides similar burst bonus damage and a vastly superior slow affect that hec can garuntee triggers (due to his Q) that is aoe instead of single target.

It also provides a similar level of effective health, with CDR as gravy.


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TealNinje

Senior Member

12-20-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by H0p0nP0p View Post
hp regen - kinda useless end game... but if u want, there's hydra (tdps), shuryla (support), bulwark (top/jungle/tank), warmog (whomever).

movespeed for a tank - y do u need it? hecarim?? there's tons of other MS items. even the new boot enchants.
HP regen is useless? Every second you survive is worth another 50+ health, with the old Force of Nature. That's like gaining 475 gold worth of items every 4 seconds. As the tank, you ARE going to take incidental damage.

Even with 36 MR, the item would still be a strong choice for durability, simply because of having a good amount of regen.

If you had had 4% extra movespeed (which get's better with the enchantments), you'd be able to catch that many more people, or get away that much more often.

Now, in order to get a good regen item, you have to forgo tankiness and mobility. If you want a good tanking item, you have to forgo regen and mobility. If you want a good movespeed item, you have to forgo regen and tankiness.

These tradeoffs plain and simply suck for tanks. The new items help mitigate the problems a little bit, but most of the items happen to be better for squishy champions than for tanks. Even Iceborn Gauntlets, which was practically designed for tanks, is better on squishy ranged champions.


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67chrome

Senior Member

12-20-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by TealNinje View Post
HP regen is useless? Every second you survive is worth another 50+ health, with the old Force of Nature. That's like gaining 475 gold worth of items every 4 seconds. As the tank, you ARE going to take incidental damage.
Health Regeneration is generally listed as Health Regeneration per 5; and is the amount of health you regenerate every 5 seconds, not every second. To get the amount restored per second you need to divide that stat by 5 (or by 10 if you want to determine how much it heals each application in game - as regeneration is applied every 0.5 seconds).

The only way you restore 50 hp per second with items is if you stack an unnecessarily large amount of health and health regeneration. Even in season 2 if you stacked 4 warmogs, a force of nature, and spirit visage and forego boots entirely you only get ~75 health per second by purchasing the most massive chunks of health regeneration available in the game, and that's with taking level 18 stats into account concerning maximum health and regeneration for the %HP restore and healing effects bonuses.

Not that regenerating health isn't useful by any stretch, you're just overselling what Force of Nature offered in a realistic build by a rather sizable margin.


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TealNinje

Senior Member

12-20-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by 67chrome View Post
Health Regeneration is generally listed as Health Regeneration per 5; and is the amount of health you regenerate every 5 seconds, not every second. To get the amount restored per second you need to divide that stat by 5 (or by 10 if you want to determine how much it heals each application in game - as regeneration is applied every 0.5 seconds).

The only way you restore 50 hp per second with items is if you stack an unnecessarily large amount of health and health regeneration. Even in season 2 if you stacked 4 warmogs, a force of nature, and spirit visage and forego boots entirely you only get ~75 health per second by purchasing the most massive chunks of health regeneration available in the game, and that's with taking level 18 stats into account concerning maximum health and regeneration for the %HP restore and healing effects bonuses.

Not that regenerating health isn't useful by any stretch, you're just overselling what Force of Nature offered in a realistic build by a rather sizable margin.
Force of Nature, with 3800 health, is 35 health per second.

You're giving the math of an item to someone who has been around since before the game released. You're attempting to mathcraft against someone who mathcrafts.

Randuin's Omen: 300 health?
Warmog's Armor: 1200-1300 health?
With the average tank, that's already hitting 3500. Throw in a couple of other items and you'll hit 3800 health. This is ignoring the other sources of regen.

Yes, I overexaggerated the item's stats, but the thread in general was ignoring the item's stats. It wasn't like I as particularly far off my mark either, once you include champion base regen.


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draydurmil

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Senior Member

12-20-2012

FoN used to be a core item for my singed and mundo. need hp regen movespd and magic res. so what do i build now? static shiv? zephyr? pd? they even removed the movspd from tank masteries and placed it on 21 points support tree. i guess they want support to initiate team fights now


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