Zileas' List of Game Design Anti-Patterns

First Riot Post
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Hiroxo

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Junior Member

11-21-2012

I agree that most of the arguments seem to make the game more viable for ignorant players.
I feel like this is going down the road what WoW recently took where some group of the player base complained about game difficulty and all the end game instances were nerfed into the ground so you didn't need a organized team of competent players to complete but just a random group of casual players. It really increases satisfaction if you give players complex choices. (nuke adc to reduce his damage output or finish off their tank, both choices are viable. Reducing adc dmg might actually be better for lategame team fights(its definitely better since he is a priority target anyway but how far are you willing to go to get that spell on him)). This gives on the fly thinking which makes the game more dynamic and interesting rather than "this skill should only be used for this purpose".

I understand that Riot wants to make the game more appealing for a larger audience but I think utilizing tool tips is more than enough for LoL. (on a side not just played shen did you guys remove the tool tip for his passive indicating how much dmg his Ki Strike would do?) If a player gets hit but Bloodseeker's rupture they look him up and read the tool tip. They see it and realize its better not to run too far.(maybe a few steps closer inside turret range would be good though). If they aren't willing to read the massive amounts of organized, easily accessible information that riot has provided even on the game client store. Then they are deemed to play against players of their own elo.(will not get better)
I think Riot has done a great job of confining players to a player base close to their own skill level (although for this type of game is much easier than an MMO).

Also that karthus-like wall seems pretty awesome to me. Take damage to get closer to the target faster? (if you were going after the caster). But actually most casters would never use it to keep enemies away. They would use it to keep the target in range since it is ineffective for keeping players away... a wall that would bounce you back towards the caster if you were running away? sounds more hilarious than Anivia's wall. (does some damage but will make you/your team an easier to reach target).(Imagine lee sin kicking someone into it and him bouncing back).

Anyway Just my 2cents.


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lolfetus

Member

11-23-2012

I did it! Finished reading all the red posts and enjoyed it very much, thank you zil and reds! I am both surprised and disappointed at how many misguided and aggressive attempts there were at creating discussion, but even still, was very pleased to see Zil respond so patiently. It is difficult to comprehend how anyone could take personal offense from a professional's view on game design >>guidelines<<. Also, was particularly interesting to watch the timestamps slowly catch up with the present. Thanks again, stay strong rioters.


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Dzanio

Senior Member

12-15-2012

Whoever designed Fiddlesticks, err actually fear effects in general should read your post.


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Mestalidd

Senior Member

12-15-2012

^

After playing vs him as talon numerous times, I am 110% sure I see fiddle cast his fear while my silence is still on them

So fun



Fiddle can also channel his trolldrain during vlads trollpool

Fair enough


He can also accidently hit you with a 100 damage nuke up to 3 times at level 1 with no DR, with silence included

So fun


Move along, nothing grosely anti fun to see here.


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lcizzleIc

Member

12-15-2012

This post makes me laugh every time I see it.

"Burden of Knowledge"

This game and genre is based on Burden of Knowledge to even be proficient at playing it.

- Knowledge of Champions, positions, playstyles, mechanics
- Knowledge of Champion stats, skills and scaling
- Knowledge of Champions and their counter picks
- Knowledge of Items
- Knowledge of Items in relation to champions stats and scaling
- Knowledge of Items in relation to the items the other team is buying and what you should or should not buy
- Knowledge of the team or players you are playing against
- Knowledge of the map
- Knowledge of positions and meta
- Knowledge of netural creeps, camps, buffs, timers
- Knowledge of quarks and bugs that hinder or inadvertently improve game play.

A moba is based on Burden of Knowledge but you do not want to make creative skills because they might cause the player to use their brain a little to use it properly?

Yet some of the most basic skills in this game carry Burden of Knowledge whether you intended it or not.

- Smart casting locking up Anne's Q
- Jarvan EQ combo can still knock up people if you flash past the pole while moving to it.
- Skarnar's Old Ultimate
- Singe flinging people that flash
- Volibear flinging people that flash
- Jayce knocking people 300 feet in the opposite direction after flashing away
- Darius, getting dunked after flashing away

It is some what hard to take advise or "design guidelines" from a designer when his/her game violates said rules so heavily.


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mtrx019

Junior Member

12-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzanio View Post
Whoever designed Fiddlesticks, err actually fear effects in general should read your post.
ugh

why would you necro this garbage


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DianasGotSwag

Senior Member

12-15-2012

If only the community could take playing LoL with more fun regardless of the outcome.

http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Fun


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crazysquirell

Senior Member

12-15-2012

I understand how this makes it super hard to come up with new champs and keep them balanced with the fun level b/c every time you add one you multiplicatively add to the balance pool, gj so far still playing the first champ that came out when i started lol, Caitlyn, though i must say the scaling on darius and jayce are rediculous imo keep up the good work please and thank you


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2pudge1cup

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

12-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by lcizzleIc View Post
This post makes me laugh every time I see it.

"Burden of Knowledge"

This game and genre is based on Burden of Knowledge to even be proficient at playing it.

- Knowledge of Champions, positions, playstyles, mechanics
- Knowledge of Champion stats, skills and scaling
- Knowledge of Champions and their counter picks
- Knowledge of Items
- Knowledge of Items in relation to champions stats and scaling
- Knowledge of Items in relation to the items the other team is buying and what you should or should not buy
- Knowledge of the team or players you are playing against
- Knowledge of the map
- Knowledge of positions and meta
- Knowledge of netural creeps, camps, buffs, timers
- Knowledge of quarks and bugs that hinder or inadvertently improve game play.

A moba is based on Burden of Knowledge but you do not want to make creative skills because they might cause the player to use their brain a little to use it properly?

Yet some of the most basic skills in this game carry Burden of Knowledge whether you intended it or not.

- Smart casting locking up Anne's Q
- Jarvan EQ combo can still knock up people if you flash past the pole while moving to it.
- Skarnar's Old Ultimate
- Singe flinging people that flash
- Volibear flinging people that flash
- Jayce knocking people 300 feet in the opposite direction after flashing away
- Darius, getting dunked after flashing away

It is some what hard to take advise or "design guidelines" from a designer when his/her game violates said rules so heavily.
indeed - i guess they learned over time though that they really can't keep pumping out new champs every couple of weeks without adding more layers.

it is funny though that this was the initial anti-dota pro-league post. would be nice if a red would shine light on their newer thought process because it's pretty obvious that a lot of their old principles were abandoned. and let's face it when you develop something sometimes you realize that complexity is never added for complexity's sake but for an extra layer of balance.

i cant think of how many new champs come out, kill you with a move and you think "wtf he does THAT?"

and lol at the rupture comparison when this game has tons of small 'features' from different attack animations, cast times, missile speeds, etc. that you only have to LOOK UP to learn.


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SilverKnightG

Junior Member

06-04-2013

I just found this and I'm bumping it because it is awesome! Great explanation of design theory and anti-theory as it were.

Now, if you Riot developers feel REALLY brave, lets have us a list of all the design mistakes you think you've made so far with designing champions. I'll bet it only looks a little like one the community would make given the same request considering their perspective is entirely outside the realm of design (with the exception of the few who are designers of games themselves...myself included).

I think it would be a long list either way, and that no developer in your place could have done much better. League of Legends has single-handedly cured me of my mmorpg itch(In case this is unclear, I now play only LoL). For that, and the resulting copious amounts of free time I now have, I thank you!