Blackfire Torch's CDR/AP Alternatives feel too weak

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VoidInsanity

Senior Member

12-14-2012

Its the best in slot item for most casters since it scales all game, especially with the S3 Pen system. Rushing something like Woogles does not help you, a Large Rod is no-where near as effective as a haunting guise. Damage wise if you rushed this item it'd end up equal or less than bft, since 25% bonus to ap when you have none doesn't help you.

Casters in general need more items with more utility on them. Sweeper and BFT are the best ones atm, The new DFG is also really good (due to the +20% damage debuff) and woogles is good but situational.


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Redenbacher

Senior Member

12-14-2012

I wouldn't consider BFT 'utility'. Active vision (sweeper, twin shadows) is a utility, something that helps you and your team in specific situations. Rylai's slow is utility, as is Abyssal Scepter's aura. BFT just adds more damage, which is why I put it in the same camp as DFG and Wooglet's.

Arguably, Wooglet's offers more utility in it's active by giving you the option to bait the enemy in to blowing cooldowns, which helps you and your team. That said, it always seems silly to rush Wooglet's - as did Rabadon's before it. Although that's not because the % scaling doesn't affect 0 (it scales off itself), it's because sitting on 1600g for the first 10 minutes of the game is generally a poor move.


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VoidInsanity

Senior Member

12-14-2012

BFT is utility because it gives more than just plain damage, and has a nice balanced build to get there. The utility on the BFT isnt the passive, its the hp/mpen/cdr, the stats casters want that are not just pure damage.

To better explain it. Sanguine Blade is not bought for damage, its bought for lifesteal. Wit's End was and still is extremely popular because it gives magic resist. Black cleaver was spammed because of its insane stackable utility. Not many rush Infinity Edge nowdays, as IE just adds damage and has zero utility.


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Galgus

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Senior Member

12-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redenbacher View Post
Keep in mind that 'wanting to deal damage' and 'wanting to deal damage with utility' are two very different things.

Yea, if I just want to deal damage, BFT, Wooglet's and DFG is my option. If I want more utility and survivability in my build, there are sacrifices for that. Granted, Wooglet's is a defensive option as well, but it's mostly selfish. Things like Sweeper, Athene's, and Morellonomicon serve a different purpose.

I don't feel you can have both team utility in addition to high raw damage. You have to decide that your team needs Sweeper, and that's a good choice to support the team.

Similarly, if I'm an AD Carry and 'want to deal damage', I build IE, PD, LW. If I want some more utility and AoE damage, there are sacrifices for that.

There's really nothing wrong with having a specific build aimed at a very specific purpose. There's no reason to give more items that do the exact same thing if the best options are already available.

Now, if the best solution was to stack BFT... that would be a problem. Hence the nerf to The Black Cleaver.
From my observations, the damage added by Black Fire Torch seems to almost always out-shine the utility granted by Athenes and Morellonomicon in a fight.

Athenes allows more poking, but even then Blackfire makes pokes hit far harder.

There are a select few champions with powerful heals that Morellonomicon could be great against, but Ignite is a fairly common summoner spell and fills the same niche.

Hextech Sweeper is a totally situational item so far as its utility goes: on some matches the active will be valuable enough to make it competitive with BFT while in others the active will be next to worthless.


In my opinion, BFT's CDR utility is a huge part of why it feels like a required item, and I think that removing that stat from it* would do a lot to improve Dominion's item decisions for Mages.

*(With buffs to compensate.)

In this way, I agree with you that more complicated item decisions where utility comes at a cost is better than a required items system.


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LackOfMoniker

Junior Member

12-14-2012

Athenes is alot more useful on heroes with highly spammable spells... In particular, I find that building Athenes on Cassiopeia is very beneficial since she already burns a ton of mana, so one needs to get an archangels, an athenes, or both in order to solve the mana problem, not to mention the fact that the CDR utility doesn't do as much for Cass as it does for other casters (it tends to be more of a bonus that comes with an item as opposed to a necessity). Theres also the issue that most casters burn through mana really fast so they need some sort of increase to their mana pool or mana regen, or give up poking the enemy and pushing the lane. As a result, I usually end up building Athenes/Archangels first, Blackfire torch after just because of mana issues.


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Galgus

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Senior Member

12-14-2012

In my experience, only using spells on champions tends to compensate for BFT's lack of mana regeneration on mana-hungry champions.

It means less pushing the lane with spells, but it also means more damage in the fights.


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LackOfMoniker

Junior Member

12-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galgus View Post
In my experience, only using spells on champions tends to compensate for BFT's lack of mana regeneration on mana-hungry champions.

It means less pushing the lane with spells, but it also means more damage in the fights.
I guess it's just a decision between whether you want to push hard so the tower is lower/dead when you do fight and you don't have to tank it as much or whether you want to be able to burst down heroes faster and take the tower after they're dead.


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suddenZenith

Senior Member

12-15-2012

I can assure you that holy grail is a very nice option for kassadin and I can imagine anivia using it. If you don't believe me you can check my record with kass, I rely on this item a lot for my playstyle.


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Galgus

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Senior Member

12-16-2012

I can see edge-cases of extremely mana hungry champions prefering grail, but generally BFT gives more overall power in a fight.


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Galgus

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Senior Member

12-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChronicleX View Post
BFT is utility because it gives more than just plain damage, and has a nice balanced build to get there. The utility on the BFT isnt the passive, its the hp/mpen/cdr, the stats casters want that are not just pure damage.

To better explain it. Sanguine Blade is not bought for damage, its bought for lifesteal. Wit's End was and still is extremely popular because it gives magic resist. Black cleaver was spammed because of its insane stackable utility. Not many rush Infinity Edge nowdays, as IE just adds damage and has zero utility.
It actually has less utility than Athene's, Morellonomicon, and Sweeper, but far better damage.

Their utility is just too situational or minor on the Crystal Scar to compete well with Blackfire.


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