Black Cleaver nerf makes no sense...

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FriendlyRaid

Senior Member

12-14-2012

I like Black Cleaver. It finally made AD casters and melee much more effective, but they did need to make it's passive unique because people were stacking it. Unfortunately, they made the wrong passive unique.

People weren't stacking it because of the flat armor pen, they were stacking it to get the percentage stacks more quickly. I understand that people will be less likely to stack it now because more than one Black Cleaver will no longer give you all the stats, but that said, it's still pretty strong and people might still stack it.

I guess we'll see, but if Riot had just made the right passive unique they wouldn't have had to nerf all the flat armor pen.


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Rakaydos

Senior Member

12-14-2012

people WERE stacking for the flat pen, because the flat pen is now applied AFTER the % pen. This meant with 2-4 Black cleavers, you were doing true damage to tanks after 2 hits.

Also, black cleaver is one of the few final items that has gold efficency AND stat efficency- that is, it gains more stats from upgrading than the cost to upgrade, and it has more stats total than comparable items.the brutalizer items were the only ADP that WERNT nerfed... it was probably overlooked.


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TheRottenCrow

Senior Member

12-14-2012

honestly its fine as it is. sure you can stack and take out tanks, but your also sacrificing much needed item slots where armor and as/ms are needed. stacking more than two actually puts you at a disadvantage because you become a slightly beefier target for any other champ with high AD or burst damage.


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Gailie

Member

12-14-2012

I say we wait and see, the patch isn't even live yet IIRC. I do think Riot is right in not overreacting and I think their plan is to methodically tweak it until they figure out what exactly is making so stackable. Also, Black Cleaver is hardly the only cost and slot efficient item in the game, IE, RoA, and Randuins, and of course, the almighty triforce are all very gold efficient and cost efficient. In fact, most expensive items tend to be rather slot efficient and cost efficient to justify their exorbitant cost.


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TealNinje

Senior Member

12-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rakaydos View Post
people WERE stacking for the flat pen, because the flat pen is now applied AFTER the % pen. This meant with 2-4 Black cleavers, you were doing true damage to tanks after 2 hits.
What kind of awful tanks were you playing with?


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Grombolar

Senior Member

12-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by FriendlyRaid View Post
I like Black Cleaver. It finally made AD casters and melee much more effective, but they did need to make it's passive unique because people were stacking it. Unfortunately, they made the wrong passive unique.

People weren't stacking it because of the flat armor pen
, they were stacking it to get the percentage stacks more quickly. I understand that people will be less likely to stack it now because more than one Black Cleaver will no longer give you all the stats, but that said, it's still pretty strong and people might still stack it.

I guess we'll see, but if Riot had just made the right passive unique they wouldn't have had to nerf all the flat armor pen.
Yes they were. Do you know how it works? Each hit of physical damage adds a stack of armor shred so Panth's E will give 3, Riven's Q will give 3, Talon's Rake will give 2. The passive was incredible easy to max even with 1 cleaver. It was the flat pen stacking that made it so powerful.


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DhokSC

Master Recruiter

12-14-2012

Even after patch I still see nothing but bruisers ruling the game, making all others champs look useless. They were stacking Cleavers not for flat armor pen. Thats why Ad casters with 2 or more AD ratios were so op. they just ignored all armor in one rotation. I think this new BC completely killed balance in the game. Champs which you take to go top were the strongest on the map anyway, and now it just makes no sense


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destromau5

Junior Member

12-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by TealNinje View Post
What kind of awful tanks were you playing with?
with the changes to armor and all the masteries, it is far easier to ignore more armor than tanks can build. if you build 150 armor, 30% is 45, so take it down to 105, with another 3% extra you get from masteries (because tanks get 5% and AD get 8%, and the flat armor/flat ArP masteries cancel each other out), drop it down to 100.5, then a Last Whisper which is another 35%, drop it down to 48, 3 black cleavers, and you have them down to 3 armor, so yes, basically true damage to a tank after 3 BCs,(and 150 armor is about normal for mid game)


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JustMyBassCannon

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Senior Member

12-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rakaydos View Post
people WERE stacking for the flat pen, because the flat pen is now applied AFTER the % pen.
Flat penetration ALWAYS applied after any form of Shred, just fyi.


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TealNinje

Senior Member

12-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by destromau5 View Post
with the changes to armor and all the masteries, it is far easier to ignore more armor than tanks can build. if you build 150 armor, 30% is 45, so take it down to 105, with another 3% extra you get from masteries (because tanks get 5% and AD get 8%, and the flat armor/flat ArP masteries cancel each other out), drop it down to 100.5, then a Last Whisper which is another 35%, drop it down to 48, 3 black cleavers, and you have them down to 3 armor, so yes, basically true damage to a tank after 3 BCs,(and 150 armor is about normal for mid game)
And somehow 3 Black Cleavers and Last Whisper is also normal for mid-game?