Black Cleaver pt. 2

First Riot Post
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Cybrid 0x0T2MD2W

Member

12-11-2012

honestly I don't see why not allow the flat armor pen to stack across different items if it's nerfed. seems like too much of a blow when the BC just needed to not stack with it's self, have some nerfs to it and so on. other than the fact it'll just make people want the piercing and reduction with the armor pen as just a side to it all.
brutalizer nerfs: I can understand it for the cost
black cleaver: it needs it if unique's so you can't stack them, but I feel it'd be a bit over-kill to not allow the different items to stack as before, since you'd forego the item space that could have been survivability.

when we pick AD, bruisers or AD assassins we tend to want BC and last whisper just to clean cut through most of the armor or pick one then get survivability and HP. I think the blackfire + teemo shrroms is still worse how ever.

these nerfs wont stop me from being renekton, but I think they are a bit too much if you can't stack different items for armor pen should you need it. I want tanks to make a come back but I don't want half tanky teemos with blackfire torches making it nearly impossible to kill them due to their kit + items.


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hoihoi8

Member

12-11-2012

So sick of playing right now because of this item. 1-4 of these on so many opponents. Make it all unique. Nerf the shiat out of this. It's making LOL become repetitive.


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Holden McRoin

Senior Member

12-12-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by LunarisDream View Post
What's wrong with deploying a hotfix for a gamebreakingly OP item?

I mean, we can all agree that Black Cleaver is overpowered, so why wait to make simple changes to numbers?

Everyone can buy it. So everyone is disadvantaged equally. Also it isn't breaking the game. its just making it kind of silly.

FWIW...Blackfire torch is almost as winning an item as cleaver. The top win % champs right now are more AP than AD. Blackfire isn't getting nearly as much attention tho, cause its goodness is sneaky.
http://www.lolking.net/charts?region...ty&range=daily


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Fox P McCloud

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Senior Member

12-12-2012

This item just plain shouldn't be in Dominion, nerfed or not----Dominion already has an Armor Penetration aura---it doesn't need something like this in it, as well; if people want ArPen, they have a perfectly fine solution: Last Whisper.

Quite frankly I have no idea why anyone at Riot thought it was a good idea to allow BC into Dominion but bar Blade of the Ruined King....just doesn't make sense.


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Redenbacher

Senior Member

12-12-2012

@Fox: They're going to remove the armor penetration aura.

I would say the possibility of Warmog's getting reinstated since it's rework is pretty good, and AD Casters will need a means to stay relevant.

I don't think BC would be much of an issue if it's passive was unique and the HP was removed from the item.

What is currently on the PBE? Is it still the same set of nerfs?


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DiscworldDeath

Senior Member

12-12-2012

Yup. Same suite of nerfs.
CDR needs to be made unique on the item, honestly.


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Redenbacher

Senior Member

12-12-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by DiscworldDeath View Post
Yup. Same suite of nerfs.
CDR needs to be made unique on the item, honestly.
That's probably necessary too. There's no reason to buy Ionian boots if you're just going to build another Brutalizer in to Cleaver. If you're going to itemize for CDR, there should be some trade-offs.

If you buy Merc Treads, and build Cleaver, you'll need something else to maximize CDR.

If you buy Ionian boots, and build Cleaver, you'll lose out on the Tenacity and MR.


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Ariou

Member

12-12-2012

My 2 cents keeping in mind the 12% armor pen is going away.

Make the arp, cdr, and passive unique on BC
Nerf the passive a little bit.

Do NOT make the brutalizer arp unique with youmuu's and BC because that makes building both items in one build quite painful. My thoughts would be to change the build path on one of them. Too much early flat arp is extremely effective.

One thing that crosses my mind is the build of LW, BC, and youmuu's is extremely effective. I wonder if thats too strong as it gives 55.5% arp (assuming no global aura) and 35 arp. I think with masteries and runes you get 54 arp, so even with 200 armor, that still brings that number below 50 I believe and squishies still remain at being hit with true damage. Thinking out loud, it might be necessary to nerf flat arp as well.

I guess the question really become is when do you want armor to become effective when you start stacking it. Right now, that number is obviously way too high.

Sorry for all the rambling, I ended up doing a lot of thinking as I was writing this out. My math, of course, is probably off.


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Redenbacher

Senior Member

12-12-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariou View Post
One thing that crosses my mind is the build of LW, BC, and youmuu's is extremely effective. I wonder if thats too strong as it gives 55.5% arp (assuming no global aura) and 35 arp. I think with masteries and runes you get 54 arp, so even with 200 armor, that still brings that number below 50 I believe and squishies still remain at being hit with true damage. Thinking out loud, it might be necessary to nerf flat arp as well.

I guess the question really become is when do you want armor to become effective when you start stacking it. Right now, that number is obviously way too high.
Extremely effective, sure, but you're making a significant gold investment for those three items and gain zero survivability. I think that's a fair choice to make. An AD Carry can go IE, PD, LW, and have the highest damage scaling per auto-attack... but one wrong move and they explode.

The difference between the two builds is the player favoring armor penetration & CDR over critical chance/damage, attack speed and movement speed.

As it stands right now, stacking black cleavers gives you... well, every stat you need as an AD Caster. That's the problem. Not necessarily the stats it offers in combination with other items.

I also think Last Whisper will need a nerf eventually as well.


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Manjo

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Junior Member

12-12-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Holden McRoin View Post
FWIW...Blackfire torch is almost as winning an item as cleaver. The top win % champs right now are more AP than AD. Blackfire isn't getting nearly as much attention tho, cause its goodness is sneaky.
I don't know about everyone else, but with all the hp items I have to build in reaction to BC, Blackfire is basically forced on me to remain relevant on damage.