[Suggestion] Sight Stones

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Beaumains

Senior Member

12-10-2012

First off, let me say that I think the concept is awesome, and the execution & final product is rather good. What I'd like to see is some parallel upgrades for the basic one, besides just the Ruby Sightstone. These could include effects like:

* Ghost Wards have increased vision range (by 15-50% - whatever is good but not broken)
* Ghost Wards have increased duration (say up to 4-6 minutes rather than just 3)
* Ghost Wards detect (all) stealth for the first 3-15 seconds of their activation
* Ghost Wards penetrate brush
* Ghost Wards have more hp (say 1-2 more)
* Every 3rd Ward is a Vision (pink) Ward (or the last in the stack, or the first)
* Sight Stone has an extra slot that can hold a free Sight Ward or Vision ward that can be dropped separately (via [Alt] + #, [Shift] + #, or [Ctrl] + #), and which doesn't interfere with the normal 2/4 count, but also doesn't get automatically replenished.

and just about anything else (reasonable) we might think of.

Additionally these Sight Stones can grant stats beyond hp, from CDR, to mana, to regen, or maybe they can increase your champion's sight radius, or grant a temporary Oracle effect (e.g. allow you to see or follow a stealthed champion for a few seconds).

Some of the particulars here may have unintended consequences: I'm not pushing for specific items/stats/#s, but as far as the general concept goes, what does everyone think?


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Beaumains

Senior Member

12-10-2012

Also, some Sight Stones (as I imagine we don't want 50 different kinds) could bestow multiple properties. For example a "Granite Sight Stone" might build from Cloth Armor, granting a bonus 15-20 AR, and give Ghost Wards an extra 2 hp, and an extra 2 minute duration. The bearer would have ~15 more armor, and the wards would have 5 hp (taking 5 hits to neutralize) and lasting 5 minutes. Or the numbers could be 20 AR, 4 hp, 6 mins; or some other such combination.

Another called a "Sapphire Sight Stone" might build from Sapphire, granting mana and dropping wards that penetrate brush and reveal stealth for their first 15 seconds (and then revert to normal wards).

There could even be a "Diamond Sight Stone" that stored pink wards instead of the normal ones, granting no other benefit.

These examples would all be the standard 4-ward max, two at a time variety, contrasted with the Ruby Sight Stone that gives 5 wards max, and three at a time.

Each of these different ward bonuses would play to different strengths & plays. It would also be important to be able to quickly pull item stats from the in-game [TAB] menu (so you know which sorts the enemy has, and what they do), though we should have that already.

Anyway, please comment and give feedback; I'm not being particularly rigorous here, but if someone else wants to be that'd be quite welcome. Thanks in advance,


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Gailie

Member

12-11-2012

Well, this is certainly a good discussion for this forum to have, as opposed to the cleaver riot that's happening right now. Don't have time to evaluate your ideas at the moment but if someone is willing to do some mathcraft, that would be awesome.


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GurkenMAN

Senior Member

12-12-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beaumains View Post
First off, let me say that I think the concept is awesome, and the execution & final product is rather good. What I'd like to see is some parallel upgrades for the basic one, besides just the Ruby Sightstone. These could include effects like:

* Ghost Wards have increased vision range (by 15-50% - whatever is good but not broken)
* Ghost Wards have increased duration (say up to 4-6 minutes rather than just 3)
* Ghost Wards detect (all) stealth for the first 3-15 seconds of their activation
* Ghost Wards penetrate brush
* Ghost Wards have more hp (say 1-2 more)
* Every 3rd Ward is a Vision (pink) Ward (or the last in the stack, or the first)
* Sight Stone has an extra slot that can hold a free Sight Ward or Vision ward that can be dropped separately (via [Alt] + #, [Shift] + #, or [Ctrl] + #), and which doesn't interfere with the normal 2/4 count, but also doesn't get automatically replenished.

and just about anything else (reasonable) we might think of.

Additionally these Sight Stones can grant stats beyond hp, from CDR, to mana, to regen, or maybe they can increase your champion's sight radius, or grant a temporary Oracle effect (e.g. allow you to see or follow a stealthed champion for a few seconds).

Some of the particulars here may have unintended consequences: I'm not pushing for specific items/stats/#s, but as far as the general concept goes, what does everyone think?
Sightstone is already strong item.
I agree the ruby-upgrade isnt thaaaat strong but given the benefit, the unupgraded sighstone already gives i dont think a "kickass-upgrade" would be beneficial to the game...


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Beaumains

Senior Member

12-12-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gailie View Post
Well, this is certainly a good discussion for this forum to have, as opposed to the cleaver riot that's happening right now. Don't have time to evaluate your ideas at the moment but if someone is willing to do some mathcraft, that would be awesome.
Thanks for that; I might be up for some later, but I think I lack a lot of the details behind wards to make more than a conceptual stab at them, as I've attempted here.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GurkenMAN View Post
Sightstone is already strong item.
I agree the ruby-upgrade isnt thaaaat strong but given the benefit, the unupgraded sighstone already gives i dont think a "kickass-upgrade" would be beneficial to the game...
I agree that Sightstones are very strong, and were intended to be strong. I'm not really looking for an "OP" or "kickass" upgrade; my goal is to see more variety and strategy when it comes to wards, and thus supports and teams in general. For example, do you go for the extra ward so you can see all 3 entrances? Or do you go for the wards that have some special benefit (better vision, better lasting, etc.) even though you only get 2 of them? The examples I listed are really just spring-board ideas; it would be great if some or all of them got implemented in some fashion, but I'm not necessarily looking for an "as-is" addition.


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EndOmega

Member

12-12-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beaumains View Post
Thanks for that; I might be up for some later, but I think I lack a lot of the details behind wards to make more than a conceptual stab at them, as I've attempted here.




I agree that Sightstones are very strong, and were intended to be strong. I'm not really looking for an "OP" or "kickass" upgrade; my goal is to see more variety and strategy when it comes to wards, and thus supports and teams in general. For example, do you go for the extra ward so you can see all 3 entrances? Or do you go for the wards that have some special benefit (better vision, better lasting, etc.) even though you only get 2 of them? The examples I listed are really just spring-board ideas; it would be great if some or all of them got implemented in some fashion, but I'm not necessarily looking for an "as-is" addition.
I agree that it would be nice to see some variety in sightstones just to fit different roles. Might even change the meta to the point where everyone is placing wards like they should instead of just the top lane, jungle and support.

Maybe make some sort of third tier branching for the sightstone similar to that of the boot enchantments where each role gets an additional effect such as HP/MP5, 10% LS/AS, +Mana or something of the like.

It'd be nice to actually have the whole team participating in placing wards instead of relying on one person then *****ing because they didnt have the one place they wanted warded, or in the event that you get that one support who doesnt buy wards or wards poorly.


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Beaumains

Senior Member

12-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by EndOmega View Post
I agree that it would be nice to see some variety in sightstones just to fit different roles. Might even change the meta to the point where everyone is placing wards like they should instead of just the top lane, jungle and support.

Maybe make some sort of third tier branching for the sightstone similar to that of the boot enchantments where each role gets an additional effect such as HP/MP5, 10% LS/AS, +Mana or something of the like.

It'd be nice to actually have the whole team participating in placing wards instead of relying on one person then *****ing because they didnt have the one place they wanted warded, or in the event that you get that one support who doesnt buy wards or wards poorly.
That's an interesting idea; and I agree that more team members should be warding more often throughout the game. Remember though, that many champs really want to have a "full build" either because it really means that much for extra damage and/or effectiveness, or for some other valid reason. The only possible exceptions are the tank, support, and assassin (since assassins tend to drop off in scale anyway come late game). Carries (AP or AD) need to have the base damage, damage amplifier, damage frequency, and damage penetration, along with boots and the situational item; you really don't want them (end game) spending gold on wards or sightstones. However, getting a sightstone on each lane & the jungle means that everyone can ward through the early-mid game, which I think is what you're getting at, and I completely agree with that. Thanks for your input!


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Beaumains

Senior Member

12-19-2012

Any other/new ideas or input? Now that the BC furor has died down a bit, it may be a good time to bring this up again.


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ExcitableOyster

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Senior Member

12-19-2012

Having a gold item that builds into the sight ward would be very, very useful for supports. Specifically referring to philo stone. Philo stone only currently builds into Shurelya's Reverie or Eleisa's Miracle. I don't see Eleisas get built ever, and Shurelya's is more of a support item in that you use it to boost your team not yourself.

I build philo stone on some of my junglers just for better gold income, but I don't have much use for the two items it builds into. I get Shurelya's just to assist in ganks or saving an ally. But if I could lay wards while jungling, I think that would assist the whole team far better.

The base ward item costs 700g, and philo costs 700g. Ruby crystal costs 475, and Ruby Sightstone costs 1300.

The Philosopher's Sightstone (just an idea for the name) could provide
10 hp/5
10 mp/5
The same ghost ward as Ruby Sightstone

at a cost of 1900 total gold. (700 sightstone + 700 philo stone + 500 recipe)

As for sightstones that give better wards, could always make a True Sightstone. If you do the math, a regular sightstone costs as much as 9.3~ regular wards. So by that logic, a True Sightstone should cost 1163 (rounded) gold. That being said, I still think having an item that grants infinite stealth detecting wards is a little overpowered, especially for only 1163 gold. The amount of wards it could hold would definetly have to be dropped, or the gold price would have to go up.


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Beaumains

Senior Member

12-19-2012

Hey Oyster, just so you know, Miracle is "sleeper OP" because if you're gonna get a P-stone, why not keep it (check out Miracle's 2nd passive - it really means what it says).

Otherwise, I think you've got a point that unlimited pink wards would have to be carefully balanced, as would any sightstone that granted stealth-detection in anyway.

Someone else was saying that there should be an intermediate item to Sightstone; and perhaps a 3 max, single drop version could be that intermediate, especially if you could buy that off the bat for 475 gold. From that base, you could upgrade at high cost to a True Sightstone that also only dropped 1 ward at a time and held 3 max.

Again, just looking to create interesting strategy and options here.