The math on Cleavers and Armor

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otirruborez

Senior Member

12-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Auhfel View Post
At least a Thornmail would be a good item against this build. The armor wont put you high up there, but considering the build has no lifesteal or MR the thornmail should hurt a ton.
only if they auto attack. they usually kill their prey with just abilities.


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DiscworldDeath

Senior Member

12-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by stigweard View Post
I'm missing something here. Where is the *.88 coming from? I know the *0.92 is to account for the 8% armor pen mastery, but what is the source of that 12% armor pen?
Dominion aura.


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stigweard

Senior Member

12-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by DiscworldDeath View Post
Dominion aura.
Oh, ok. Thanks. I've played, like, three games of Dominion, and I was unaware of this. The more you know.


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QuantumPrinciple

Junior Member

12-06-2012

The biggest factor in this 4 BC build is due to 3 factors:
1- the formula change to calculate Armor having the order changed (% is now counted before flat)
2- you only need 4 stacks of BC passive to account for the 30% reduction and a single player does have 6 slots
3- due to 1, any non-unique application of flat ArPen or ArRed will hurt a lot after % is calculated and BC has a non-unique ArPen

How to fix this:
1- Change the BC passive to: Dealing physical damage to an enemy champion reduces their armor by 5% for 5 seconds. This effect stacks up to 6 times. - This is to fix the fact that having multiple BC each applying a stack allowed a single player to apply the 4 stacks in one swoop. With that change it is no more possible except if the player wants to stack 6 BC. Maybe even lower the % to 4%
2- Change the BC ArPen to +10 ArPen or even +5 ArPen
3- Change the BC ArPen to be a unique passive and therefore stacking BC will not allow you to gain from that flat ArPen more than once

I think the biggest issue due to the formula change is the easy application of 30% ArRed (which on a 300 armor player means instant 90 AR reduction benefiting everyone). I would actually change BC with 1- and 2- (with +10 ArPen) in the above change proposal. Using 3- would be a too big nerf to BC.


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PhreakInfinity

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Senior Member

12-06-2012

ok so, true damage is a thing now, pretty much everyone can do it. Who cares? It's an easy counter, don't buy armor, buy HP. Same for all true dmg, buy HP is the solution. And I tell you with these new items you so can buy hp and dmg at the same time, there is nothing to fear.


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Nyzos

Member

12-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by QuantumPrinciple View Post
The biggest factor in this 4 BC build is due to 3 factors:
1- the formula change to calculate Armor having the order changed (% is now counted before flat)
2- you only need 4 stacks of BC passive to account for the 30% reduction and a single player does have 6 slots
3- due to 1, any non-unique application of flat ArPen or ArRed will hurt a lot after % is calculated and BC has a non-unique ArPen

How to fix this:
1- Change the BC passive to: Dealing physical damage to an enemy champion reduces their armor by 5% for 5 seconds. This effect stacks up to 6 times. - This is to fix the fact that having multiple BC each applying a stack allowed a single player to apply the 4 stacks in one swoop. With that change it is no more possible except if the player wants to stack 6 BC. Maybe even lower the % to 4%
2- Change the BC ArPen to +10 ArPen or even +5 ArPen
3- Change the BC ArPen to be a unique passive and therefore stacking BC will not allow you to gain from that flat ArPen more than once

I think the biggest issue due to the formula change is the easy application of 30% ArRed (which on a 300 armor player means instant 90 AR reduction benefiting everyone). I would actually change BC with 1- and 2- (with +10 ArPen) in the above change proposal. Using 3- would be a too big nerf to BC.
Yes I agree, some type of variation of those fixes at least. Making it a Unique passive is a deff. tho. Even if they make this item unique passive tho, its still really OP on champions like wukong that can deal consistant aoe physcal dmg, there team will have extremely reduced armor and its over at that point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhreakInfinity View Post
ok so, true damage is a thing now, pretty much everyone can do it. Who cares? It's an easy counter, don't buy armor, buy HP. Same for all true dmg, buy HP is the solution. And I tell you with these new items you so can buy hp and dmg at the same time, there is nothing to fear.
So Black Cleaver, AoE consistant dmg ult,HP Stacking? no problem Blade of the Ruined King. CC? no problem Scimatar Tenacity from Def mastery & Merc Treads, hard focus? no problem GA.


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hotfire

Senior Member

12-06-2012

It just doesnt even make sense that they'd make the Cleavers % pen stack, I assumed people were stacking for faster stack application and to get the bonus flat pen. The old black cleaver would only apply an extra stack per hit, still maxing out at 3, because it is a debuff. Why isnt it like that, considering the way that armor reduction doesnt scale multiplicatively. So now rather than just fix that, he's just gonna delete? I mean dowhat you gotta, but it doesnt seem that hard to fix.


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Autocthon

Senior Member

12-06-2012

What is the .88?

Looks like you're calculating as...

30% Reduction (BC full)
12% Redux/Pen
8% Redux/Pen
35% Pen (W)
Then the flat penetration of runes/masteries/BC

BC is pretty beastly, but alone it's roughly equivalent to LW (give or take). With Last Whisper it's a bit more dangerous (necessitating some HP, not a big deal).

Stacking BC probably isn't going to break a good team (they'll start getting health and have a frozen heart to reduce your DPS by 20%), but yah it's pretty powerful.

Though a full gimmick build is going to greatly reduce your potential DPS from alternative modifiers unless you're an AD caster. That HP tho 0.0


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Orphane

Senior Member

12-06-2012

12% is from the Dominion global aura. This was covered like 5 posts before yours.


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vennomite

Senior Member

12-06-2012

Unless they changed it. it is possible to have negative armor. so.. some of these calculations would result in you having negative armor and thus taking more than true damage. no one

So just to to quote this formula.

Quote:
4 Cleavers with LW
100 armor: 100 - 30 = 70 * .88 * .92 * .65 - 84 = 0 armor = 0% damage reduction, from 50%
It would result in an armor value of -47.16. Which results in you doing about 32% bonus damage. Owsies...