Sejuani needs a bit of TLC

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Thessalonike

Senior Member

12-04-2012

@Arctic,

Its all good!!

They did not buff her ability to duel. (directly) They did not give her a shield.

Removing the stop is more of an identity choice over a steroid. If she gets neither then I think most players will say "pffft... one second and a minor armor bump, no thanks." . I am very happy with the adjustment, we don't need her banned or picked more!


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Arcticfury

Senior Member

12-04-2012

@Rav

The items in conjunction with the small bumps is what I'm looking at as balance.

* Iceborn Gauntlet; adds armor, mana, ap, cr, and an AOE slow with auto attack. An extra slow from Sej's initiation, slowing nearby champs with her auto attack, and those stats are great for Sej.
* Spirit of the Ancient Golem; makes her an awesome Jungler with good regens, health, armor and extra damage dealt.
* Spirit Stone; early grab of this means second clear will be much easier for Sej.

And a bunch of random items that can be added depending on team compositions:

* Shard of True Ice; AP, Gold, Mana Regen, AOE slow
* Liandry's Torment; HP, AP, Magic pen, and a burn, with slows as a near constant for Sej you can count on the 5% HP burn.
* Ohmwrecker; this may help make Sej a good support class now.
* Runic Bulwark; make her tanking abilities much better after initiating.

There are so many possibilities now, none make her OP, but with a Warmong's and 2-3 of these items she'll be pretty tanky, a lot of Utility. Her Jungle clears first and second round will still be tough, but otherwise I think after that she's more viable.


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Thessalonike

Senior Member

12-04-2012

Looking forward to going home tonight and running custom after custom to test things out. Followed by a normal blind or two. Masteries, Items and Runes.. oh my! So much work to do.


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Arcticfury

Senior Member

12-06-2012

So how did the custom games go?

I was only able to play 2 games, one was normals and I got two quick ganks, she seems to do very quick clears compared to before, and that extra second on winds is very helpful. But at like 8 mins one of our players quit and we lost and I did stay alive for a lot of the fights, but we just couldn't get the advantage. I then played AI for the quick WOTD so I can't say much for that game other than she seemed to do well in the jungle.


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Lozan

Senior Member

12-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mooseville View Post
I've actually owned Sej since she's first been released, she's just been so underwhelming that I neglected to play her until a few days ago. In my first 3 games as her, I played her in the jungle, as apparently thats the only way to play her. So I've come to the opinion that she's a mess. Her ult is fantastic, but that's about it. Her early clears leave much to be desired and even though she's in the "CC tank" category that Naut, Mumu, and Leona are in, she doesn't do it anywhere near ad well as either of them. I came up with what's (in my opinion) a modest fix to a majority of her problems

Frost: Sej's passive is only decent on it's own for chasing. to improve that, i recommend the slow increase at levels 6/11/16, capping at 25%. To improve Sej's pathetic jungle survivability, I also think that creeps and neutral monsters afflicted with frost should deal 20% less damage. Of course, to avoid being broken, Baron and Dragon would be immune to this

Arctic Assault: Sej's charge, while being a cool gap closer and escape ability, is pretty underwhelming when it comes down it. To repair this, I suggest, firstly, that the hitbox be widened to the width of Sej's boar. Second, the charge should apply in a small knock-back/up similar to Riven's Broken Wings AoE. Lastly, a shield should be applied on activation, Sejuani has no real sustainability, and this would fix this known problem. All of these proposed changes would give charging into a fight a much stronger purpose. These changes would also justify the skill having a ridiculously long cooldown

Northern Winds: The Aoe skill is used primarily for clearing jungle camps and it honestly doesn't do that very well. I suggest the base damage be improved by 10 at all ranks and the empowerment be improved to 75% over 50%. That would allow much faster jungle clears while not being considered overpowered.

Permafrost: One look at this skill, and you instantly know that it isn't actually used for the damage. This is supposed to give Sej's passive purpose, its a moderate slow that turns massive at later levels. while it does its job well, i feel that the range is incredibly lacking at a measly 350. Increasing this to 800 would allow Sej to secure kills for her team by catching fleeing enemy champions. *EDIT: It was pointed out to me that I misread the wiki, the range is actually 1000 on this skill already. Thanks to those who alerted me to this, you know who you are.*

Glacial Prison: I can say this is the one thing that needs absolutely no change at all, it does everything that Sej needs in a team fight. I love what it is right now.
Sejuani is my absolute favorite jungler/tank and I have played dozens of games with her in ranked/ unranked 5s,3s and Dominion. While I love what she does, and I DETEST the usage of "OP" or "Under Powered" champs as an excuse for poor performance by the player, I do agree that she is a tad underpowered when compared to other champions, most noticeably in ranked games(in pug games I've CARRIED with her, its crazy what a little experience can do) . The two largest things I'd change about sej is her cool downs and Northern Winds.

Sejuani's spells do indeed work very well with each other, a simple Arctic Assault, Permafrost, Northern Winds combo will clear or badly wound almost any creep camp and make for a great gank/initiate. So we know that her kit jives well with itself, so whats the problem? Simple, Cost v Reward. Lets examine Jungle Sejuani's early game shall we? Now, if Sejuani gets blue (99.998% of the time in unranked games) her clears are most satisfactory, if Sejuani cannot get blue ( due to counter jungleing/ mid REALLY needs it) farming with her is a pain.

While 3/4th of Sejuani's Cool downs are extremely reasonable, without the CDR from blue, Arctic Assult's long cool down will leave you idly sitting outside of creep camps waiting for 5-10 secs for your MOST IMPORTANT skill to recharge. Don't believe me that Arctic Assault is so important? Well lets examine what exactly it does. Arctic Assault is your primary escape/chase (Charge over walls, Jarvan IV's ulti, catch up to a fleeing champ, run from pursuing champ, dodge Lux, Gangplank, Ez ulti, etc...) and it procs frost. Frost is what your ENTIRE kit revolves around; without frost, Northern Winds is just a sub-par AOE attack, which does minimal damage (it scales with HP though, which is cool for tanks, still, it doesn't scale NEARLY enough to make it competitive), and Permafrost, your main source of CC at any respectable range and the move that makes the difference between "just got away" and getting your ADC fed, is just a vacant spot on your skill bar. I know that attacking procs frost too, but it really can't be compared at all to being able to charge into wraiths, shooting off permafrost on all 4 of them, then cleaning up with a buffed Northern Winds. And yes, I am well aware that its CD reduces with levels, but all those things frost helps out aren't gonna be worth ANYTHING if you put all your early levels in Arctic Assault, you need those levels in Northern Winds and Permafrost just to keep up with everyone in terms of damage and utility.

The other thing that Blue buff gives you that is so important to your ability to jungle and farm (for those of you who followed all that) is the mana regen. In order to clear camps with any sort of efficiency Sejuani must use every ability she has besides her ulti in a burst, and that ain't cheep. The cost of clearing a single camps (assuming level 1 Arctic Assault) is 70+40+55= 165 mana. Each and every camp. Almost every time I don't have complete control over the blue buff early game, I have to recall after 2 or 3 camps, this SIGNIFICANTLY hinders my ability to farm and gank, which stunts my gold growth significantly.


That's it for costs/ cool downs, next I want to address what I feel is a more pressing issue with her kit, Northern Winds. Northern Winds is an interesting ability that ultimately falls flat. As Mooseville previously mentioned, it is outclassed by most of its peers, which is a cause of great concern for me as a Sejuani player. I have seen several suggestions in this thread about potential changes, so I think I'll put my two cents about the spell in. How about have the spell slow enemies down? It would complement Sejuani's CC heavy kit better, you could even have it work with frost by having the CC (or damage or both) increase when frosted champs are effected. You could even have the skill proc frost itself, that way it'd be easier to get reliable frosts off on people, allowing for better uses of Permafrost in team fights( you might initiate with Arctic Assault or even Glacial Prison, but frost only lasts for 3 seconds, which may not be enough time to stop the other team from beating a hasty retreat).


Sejuani is my absolute favorite jungler, and it really pains me to see the kind of reputation she has earned in the community. She is a different kind of jungler, she's not Shaco leaving traps around the map and bursting the other team hard, she's not Fiddlesticks who jumps out of the bushes for a pentakill then runs away, she's Sejuani. She works best when complimenting teams, her job is to do the heavy lifting, to rush into fights so the ADC can get a kill, to prevent the other team from catching an ambushed ally, to provide CC when your team is Ez, Kat, and garen. Sejuani is a team player, she excels at filling in the cracks in the team to make it a more solid and stable entity. most people don't understand this and write her off as pathetically under powered. She isn't. She just REALLY needs a good team to support, she isn't the carry you know :P.



P.S. Her skins are really gay, lets get working on that Riot


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Arcticfury

Senior Member

12-06-2012

Her cooldowns are indeed very long, almost painfully long. Without blue buff you really lose a ton of damage early on, bad mana regen and long wait times for skills. I find I use no less than 5 mana pots jungling with her, more if I somehow get distracted trying to gank, or ganking, and find my blue stolen. However, after 2nd clear you shouldn't have to use all 3 spells on wraiths or wolves, just a waste of mana.

I'd like to see smaller cooldowns so that she isn't so easy to counter jungle, or mana cost reduction so she isn't blue buff dependent. Even not counter jungled you have to take blue during the entire laning phase, which means your mid can't get it and I prefer giving my mid blue 2nd-3rd clear on.

But, with all of the tank nerfs, and Sej bumps, I really think they brought her really close to being balanced. Maybe on the bottom side of balanced now.


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Thessalonike

Senior Member

12-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcticfury View Post
So how did the custom games go?

I was only able to play 2 games, one was normals and I got two quick ganks, she seems to do very quick clears compared to before, and that extra second on winds is very helpful. But at like 8 mins one of our players quit and we lost and I did stay alive for a lot of the fights, but we just couldn't get the advantage. I then played AI for the quick WOTD so I can't say much for that game other than she seemed to do well in the jungle.
The customs are fine, I got two ideas that I am trying to make work, in my Red first route I saved 40k in IP for runes but I just don't know yet.

Spirit is a good item but I am not a fan of getting locked into another only choice starting item.

More work when I get home, I am not a minmaxer but I need to be strong enough to help at any point.


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Arcticfury

Senior Member

12-07-2012

@Rav. I'm not sure that's a bad thing though. Before we were required to start with cloth, which you either combined with boots or left alone until later in the game. Now you get machete and while it does nothing directly to champions, it does allow you to clear the jungle both faster and with more hp left over, whereas cloth only left you with a bit more hp.

I think it is a small improvement. Those clear times are more gold, which is huge.

But I don't understand the saving of 40k in IP. Can you elaborate?


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Thessalonike

Senior Member

12-07-2012

Yea, Spirit just fits what I am trying to do now so... like you said it isn't a bad thing. I just have this internal desire not to follow suite at whatever I do.

I just need to make sure it works well enough that what I do end up doing doesn't cost my team. I will continue to use jungle Heal although some people dodge because of it.

I am buying at least 1 whole new set of runes for season 3 and its about 20k per page. I wanted to see how they changed things first though. The good thing is I think I am going to stick with this trial a while so I got some spare IP for now. Maybe I will pick up Victor.


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Rograth

Member

12-07-2012

I agree, sejuani is underpowered. They need to do something with her