Entropy and Kitae's

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TOP10 ELO

Senior Member

11-16-2012

Entropy is so expensive :S

The fast pace game isn't supposed to be 10 min waiting to finish a item, and in those 10 minutes u get very underpowered


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TOP10 ELO

Senior Member

11-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
So I think it's fairly clear at this point that both these items need looking at... kitae's in particular.
I think after S3 hits, I'll give them a balance pass. I don't have any plans on bringing Blade of the Ruined King over to Dominion currently, as it seems to very heavily favor bruisers. It shouldn't be too hard to give kitae's a few bumps.
Ur the man, u should substitute morello and be the lead game designer


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Desmund Rughes

Senior Member

11-17-2012

meh remake yes, i never but kitae. Do buy entropy on wu kong though


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Das Strychnine

Senior Member

11-17-2012

Entropy is just simply not worth getting compared to Frozen Mallet which is better on 99% of the champions that would otherwise get Entropy. The 700 HP is just too good to pass up over some true damage active.


Kitaes is only used maybe on Warwick or Kogmaw and one would argue that standard AD carry build is superior on Kogmaw any ways.

Please when you remake the items don't make super OP defensive items so Bruisers can keep dominating this mode.


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RubMahNips

Junior Member

11-18-2012

One time I built an entropy + phantom dancer on sejuani because someone told me to in lobby

I went 7/5


we lost.


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Redeemed In Fire

Senior Member

11-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by GaoImADinosaur View Post
Dominion casual here, I've only ever built Entropy once or twice, usually I never do because the characters I play that want it for the HP want more of it, and the characters that might want it for the AD want more synergistic stats instead of the active and HP. It's just a strange item with no clear optimization, I really never know the situation I'm supposed to build it in.

I've built Kitae's on Kog, that's it, though many times it feels like a PD/LW combo would be better anyway.

To be perfectly honest, isn't Kitae's a problem item for the exact same reasons as Madred's Bloodrazor is, in the way it only pretends to counter tanks and the like? Madred's is getting removed for being awkward and not fufilling its intended role from what I understand, shouldn't Kitae's fall under the same rework logic?
Interestingly, for Kog, someone did the math and another PD is always going to give you more damage than an LW due to his onhit. I'll dig up the postif you want, it was part of the DiffTheEnder series on RoG.


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Rebonack

Senior Member

11-19-2012

To touch on Entropy again:

Mallet is going to be sitting at 30 AD come S3. Trinity is going to get nerfed a bit, but it'll still be one of the most cost effective items in the game. And Entropy directly competes with both of these items. So let us ask the question, who would ideally want an item like Entropy over the other two options?

The obvious answer is pretty clear. Champions who like raw AD. So how about we apply these aspects to a more workable item?

Entropy
Phage, Bilgewater Cutlass, Pick-Axe, Combine Cost (this places it in the price range of Trinity Force and gives it a very attractive buildup)
Stats: ~80 AD, ~250 HP
UNIQUE passive: Phage passive
UNIQUE passive: you are healed for 15% of the damage you deal to enemy champions.
UNIQUE active: deal 150 + Bonus AD physical damage to a target and slow them by 40 for 3 seconds. 60 second CD, 400 range.


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Cauldrath

Senior Member

11-28-2012

So, we have enough BFT threads right now and this doesn't really fit in any of them, since it's more about the problem with Kitae's, so I'm necroing this. Deal with it.

TLDR: New Kitae's passive: Your basic attacks deal magic damage equal to 16 + 10% of the target's bonus Health.
New BFT passive: 50 + (5% of target's bonus health per 100 AP) over 3 seconds

Anyway, I was thinking more on the problem of % health damage being nearly as effective against squishies compared to bruisers, so it actually winds up more effective on bruisers against squishies. So, instead of making the damage % of max/current/missing health, make the damage a % of bonus health. Right now adding a S2 Warmog's with 1270 health to Sona, who has the least at 1600 base health at level 18, only increases the damage against her by ~80%, which is the largest increase you will find for an item/champ combination.

So, right now Kitae's is 2.5% of max health. Say we want it to do the same amount of damage to a champ with 1990 base health (average of Sona and Nunu, which comes out to Nidalee) with +450 for Giant's Belt, but want it to deal some base damage (~1/3 of Wit's End?), so it isn't completely useless against targets with no health items. So, 61 damage against that given target, with 16 of it base damage.

New Kitae's passive would look like this:
Your basic attacks deal magic damage equal to 16 + 10% of the target's bonus Health.

So, it would deal 16 damage to someone with no health items, 61 damage to someone with a Giant's Belt, and 85 to someone with Frozen Mallet. If it somehow met a max-stack-S2 Warmog's, it would deal 143 damage. This would definitely make it a counter to health stacking.

Giving BFT a similar treatment, I'm going to start with the suggestion I made to switch to AP scaling:
48 + (1% of target's maximum health per 100AP) over 3 seconds

Adjusting it so it deals about the same damage to Nidalee with a Giant's Belt (72.4 for 100 AP or 96.8 for 200):
50 + (5% of target's bonus health per 100 AP)

So, at 100 AP, it deals 50 damage to targets with no bonus health, 72.5 for a Giant's Belt, or 85 for a Frozen Mallet. At 200 AP, 50, 95, and 120. This would make it squarely hit an itemization goal of AP champion countering a health-stacking target, without making it useless as a rushed item or against a target with no bonus health.


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urmamasllama

Senior Member

11-28-2012

great idea but i'd like to see the flat damage start smaller and scale a little too otherwise no one will ever build hp and just stack resists for fear of BFT and kitaes


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The Bitterness

Senior Member

11-28-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
Anyone buy these? Worth remaking?
As a Dominion player who has been continually frustrated by Riot's handling of Dominion, all things considered, I think it would be best for you to finish the conversation about Blackfire Torch before concerning yourself with the worth of other items. It is clear that the Blackfire Torch conversation is not finished, at least not in respect to answering questions I raised in Quintic's thread about it.

To make things easier, I'll copy and paste my response to you here as well as a few important links:

"In a separate thread about BFT, you've agreed that the Dom community recognises several things well ahead of our SR counterparts and mainly because SR has a more PvE-oriented focus while Dom is just the opposite.

You simply cannot contend that BFT is intended to address Mage efficiency issues on SR when the item doesn't currently appear on SR and is causing severe problems on Dominion. Dominion, as you've rightly pointed out in other posts, is a playing field where it's about PvP and gold is a relative non-issue in comparison to SR. This means that Mages in Dom are already in, all things considered, a decent place and introducing BFT grossly upsets that balance.

You also cannot contend that BFT was made in isolation and not, to be fair to your argument, strictly intended for S3. The community has looked at this item and wondered if it saw any real testing because its power is remarkably apparent as soon as it's acquired. It's quite clear that the item was made in isolation and, at the risk of sounding a bit aggressive, there is a body of people wondering if it was even tested. After all, how could such a blatantly over-powered item make it through testing?

Unlike Summoner's Rift, Dominion is about PvP. Don't get me wrong, Summoner's Rift takes its own particular set of skills and I'm not trying to disparage it. What I'm getting at and what you've said yourself is that Dom is really and truly about PvP and BFT is, from what you're saying, an item that is intended for a more PvE-oriented game like Summoner's Rift. In that case there is no reason why BFT should be on Dominion and even less of a reason why we should be waiting for it to be 'nerfed' for Dominion when it doesn't belong and wasn't meant to address Mages on Dominion."

The above, of course, isn't an explicit question, it is an implied question of accountability when what's been said by you doesn't seem to make sense.

I do not believe that I have taken anything you have said out of context, however if I have taken anything out of context please elaborate what I have mistaken so that I'm not hanging on to any errors or putting words in your mouth. I do not want to do either of those things. What I want is the same thing many die-hard Dominion players want, irrespective of their level of play: accountability. Please don't misunderstand, I'm not 'calling you out,' or anything childish like that, I'm simply asking for an explanation when I put together the important things that you've said about Dominion and Blackfire Torch. It's not wrong to ask for accountability and that's all that I ask for, accountability and it's explanation.

So, ultimately, why was BFT even on Dominion in the first place and how, given your rationale for its existence, even remain on Dominion at all? Other items that have shown to be unfit on Dominion have been removed or were not even introduced to the map, yet BFT is neither intended nor fit for Dominion and remains. An explanation is necessary, especially before you ask for feedback about other items that impact the game much, much less.

EDIT: Cheers to anonymous downvotes for having a thoughtful, if negative, opinion on something!