Double PD vs 1PD 1LW

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Duhizy

Senior Member

11-25-2012

this is only true for a few champions that have built in armor pen or true damage like vayne or corki, difftheender and gentlemangustaf who are famous for their meta changing mathematics http://www.reignofgaming.net/blogs/a...t-last-whisper. They points out basically that because vayne gets more true damage for attack speed that the increased crit allows double PD vayne to do more damage then LW, the same applies for corki's passive, and kog to a certain point.


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til Days of Blue

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Senior Member

11-25-2012

wingsofdeathx doesn't main AD carry...and Executioner is strong especially when the enemy is getting to lower health. Finally, the bonus to 19/11/0 mastery is often the minion damage reduction, which is rarely noticeable on bottom lane unless you keep tanking minions. This mastery setup is often used in jungle or top lane, which is where wingofdeathx is good at.


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til Days of Blue

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Senior Member

11-25-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by duhizy View Post
this is only true for a few champions that have built in armor pen or true damage like vayne or corki, difftheender and gentlemangustaf who are famous for their meta changing mathematics http://www.reignofgaming.net/blogs/a...t-last-whisper. They points out basically that because vayne gets more true damage for attack speed that the increased crit allows double PD vayne to do more damage then LW, the same applies for corki's passive, and kog to a certain point.
That is often true when Vayne can proc the silver bolt, but when she can't, most of the time LW is more reliable.


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IcyPhoenix1

Junior Member

11-25-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by ExecutionerKen View Post
wingsofdeathx doesn't main AD carry...and Executioner is strong especially when the enemy is getting to lower health. Finally, the bonus to 19/11/0 mastery is often the minion damage reduction, which is rarely noticeable on bottom lane unless you keep tanking minions. This mastery setup is often used in jungle or top lane, which is where wingofdeathx is good at.
I may be wrong, but i thought i remember him playing Ezreal bot a few games and him using 19-11 and talking about why it is better, but i may be pulling a blank here.

But have you not looked at the math, now that it is corrected?
With Double PD you do way more damage from auto attacks over a team fight, and regen a lot more healthy via vamp. The only benefit to using a last whisper is for more burst, because the Skillshots will do more damage.

I also did math for short 5 second fights when buckshot has a 8 second cooldown

So could you go more in detail as to why you still believe last whisper to be better than double PDs? Because it now clearly does more damage to anyone below 180 Armor, which is going to be at least 4 out of 5 players.

Is it because of the burst potential of skillshots? Or the cheaper price of Last Whisper to your second PD


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IcyPhoenix1

Junior Member

11-25-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by duhizy View Post
this is only true for a few champions that have built in armor pen or true damage like vayne or corki, difftheender and gentlemangustaf who are famous for their meta changing mathematics http://www.reignofgaming.net/blogs/a...t-last-whisper. They points out basically that because vayne gets more true damage for attack speed that the increased crit allows double PD vayne to do more damage then LW, the same applies for corki's passive, and kog to a certain point.

Same here, can you explain further why you still believe Last whisper over 2nd PD to be better, despite the math clearly showing you do more damage, without built in Penetration like Vayne or Corki. Is it because of the burst potential of skillshots?

339 Buckshot point blank Vs 449 Point blank buckshot with a Last whisper, its only 110 more burst ....


Again.....

IE + PD + PD
339 point blank buckshot
269 auto attack
We do 1.78 attacks per sec in this build
In 5 secs we do 9 autos so
2421 damage in 5 secs from auto attacks
15% vamp gives us 363 life back over 5 seconds
Total damage from buckshot and 5 secs of autos
= 2760

IE + PD + LW
449 point blank buckshot
311 dmg per auto attack
1.42 auto attacks per sec
In 5 secs we do 7 auto attacks
So 2177 dmg in 5 secs from autos
15% vamp gives us 326 life back in 5 secs
Total damage from buckshot and 5 sec of autos
=2626


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til Days of Blue

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Senior Member

11-25-2012

1. Buckshot and Ultimate will most likely hit more than one target
2. The tank, who will most likely be in your face, will tend to have a lot of armor, way pass 180. Usually you won't be able to get pass him and kill the other 3-4 until he is down. (Example: Malphite with 300+ armor)
3. Majority of the time you will be kiting, for most of the ranged AD player, 1.78 AS will tend to drop to 1.5 at most, because it takes time to move as well. This is not really a math problem, but the reality. (You can ignore this fact if you think you can fully use the 1.78 AS)


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Amatzikahni

Senior Member

11-25-2012

Most abilities can't crit. I don't think Buckshot can, so you wouldn't use a crit modifier for it.


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IcyPhoenix1

Junior Member

11-25-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by ExecutionerKen View Post
1. Buckshot and Ultimate will most likely hit more than one target
2. The tank, who will most likely be in your face, will tend to have a lot of armor, way pass 180. Usually you won't be able to get pass him and kill the other 3-4 until he is down. (Example: Malphite with 300+ armor)
3. Majority of the time you will be kiting, for most of the ranged AD player, 1.78 AS will tend to drop to 1.5 at most, because it takes time to move as well. This is not really a math problem, but the reality. (You can ignore this fact if you think you can fully use the 1.78 AS)
This is perfect, this is a solid answer I was looking for. It is true, I didn't think of that, but I usually do Orb-Walk like in HON, when Bruisers start to get in my face, also didn't even think of buckshot and ulti doing AoE. I will now be going w PD + LW due to this, thanks for the great answer.

I have also made an excel sheet with Armor Pen marks vs the flat AD marks
Here is a link to that one
http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/4269/loldamagepen.png


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IcyPhoenix1

Junior Member

11-25-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amatzikahni View Post
Most abilities can't crit. I don't think Buckshot can, so you wouldn't use a crit modifier for it.
The only ability that can Crit is parrley from gankplank, none of my calculations have crit factored into the buckshot. Just the auto attacks

But as Ken mentioned, Autos are Single Target, Buckshot and Ulti are AoE, so Last Whisper is better, also 2 PD's you cannot truly maximize the attackspeed use, since you need to kite and orb walk, so you will not be getting the max attack speed you have


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IcyPhoenix1

Junior Member

11-25-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by ExecutionerKen View Post
2. The tank, who will most likely be in your face, will tend to have a lot of armor, way pass 180. Usually you won't be able to get pass him and kill the other 3-4 until he is down. (Example: Malphite with 300+ armor)
I saw you are around 1900 Elo, my highest is 1450, I have never seen Malphite not banned in all my 100 games of ranked, do you guys not ban him as much at that ELO or what? The highest armor targets I encounter at 1400~ Elo are Maokai, Mundo, Olaf etc with a Randuins Omen, barely breaking 180 Armor if even.